Brussels region noise regulation

[Crosswind]

sn-remember : would you accept nuisance for free, simply by the worry to beeing nice with others ? "Oh, sorry, I take all the nuisance without any return, or so little, because I love you".

Not realistic. Certainly in this artificial splitted country. Whether we want it or not, Brussels airport noise is a pure political problem. 100% !

[lumumba]

As an aside, I must state that I disapprove the way this debate is conducted by some on this tread and some in the political sphere ... although not everybody thanksfully !
1. It's not relevant to distinguish which human category is impacted by the nuisance. A human is a human whatever his/her race, religion, culture, wealth and should be treated equally. This 'ethnic' divide in the politics is rotten.
2. It's not relevant to differenciate among workers origin at the airport to conclude which patterns of air trafic nuisance to adopt. The airport would employ an all Indian manpower, what would you say then he ?
3. It's not relevant to compare which category is using most the airport facility either .. Indeed lets think and act as if we were all the same 'colour' or value ?
..
Those types of arguments are simply insane (and unacceptable in these days and age .. me think) !
I say there must be an undiscriminating way to handle the nuisance issue around the airport, and no, I do NOT want to check the 'colour' of the people bothered (or not) in their sleep.

I don't think it's about ethnic groups we are discussing here but more about numbers....

[sn-remember]

sn-remember : would you accept nuisance for free, simply by the worry to beeing nice with others ? "Oh, sorry, I take all the nuisance without any return, or so little, because I love you".
Not realistic. Certainly in this artificial splitted country. Whether we want it or not, Brussels airport noise is a pure political problem. 100% !

The politics conducted on the basis of 'ethnical' discrimination are rotten. I say its' time to upper the political game but is it possible in this country ? Or like André says, should we call an external entity to help on this controversial issue ?
..
@lumumba: ''ethnic' is to sociology what 'community' is to politics ..

[Crosswind]

The politics conducted on the basis of 'ethnical' discrimination are rotten. I say its' time to upper the political game but is it possible in this country ? Or like André says, should we call an external entity to help on this controversial issue ?
..

I do fully agree. An external point of view able to equally balance facts and figures would be a must. But this country, splitted as it is, will never allow that I'm afraid.

Here is the recent report Bourgeois gave to Charles Michel : http://www.lalibre.be/actu/politique-be ... 397f138c6a

Quite a joke, all the 4 points. How to negociate with such a bad faith ?

[Passenger]

Here is the recent report Bourgeois gave to Charles Michel : http://www.lalibre.be/actu/politique-be ... 397f138c6a
Quite a joke, all the 4 points. How to negociate with such a bad faith ?

You must be joking? Bourgeois is a not only a straight and honnest politician, he's also a lawyer. So he knows damn right what he's talking about. To make a Conflict of interest valid, there is just one condition: the president of the negociation board (comité de concertation/overlegcomité) has to accept it. it's as simple as that. And the president has accepted it. The counter argument from Vervoort (= Flanders has no right to call a second Conflict of interest) is waived by the acceptance by president of the negociation board.

[Crosswind]

You must be joking? Bourgeois is a not only a straight and honnest politician, he's also a lawyer. So he knows damn right what he's talking about. To make a Conflict of interest valid, there is just one condition: the president of the negociation board (comité de concertation/overlegcomité) has to accept it. it's as simple as that. And the president has accepted it. The counter argument from Vervoort (= Flanders has no right to call a second Conflict of interest) is waived by the acceptance by president of the negociation board.

I do not comment on the "Conflict of interest" process, neither on the acceptance by the overlegcomité, for which I give the slightest importance (rights on this matter is quite a volatile concept). No, I comment on the text's core, the four points.

[Passenger]

You must be joking? Bourgeois is a not only a straight and honnest politician, he's also a lawyer. So he knows damn right what he's talking about. To make a Conflict of interest valid, there is just one condition: the president of the negociation board (comité de concertation/overlegcomité) has to accept it. it's as simple as that. And the president has accepted it. The counter argument from Vervoort (= Flanders has no right to call a second Conflict of interest) is waived by the acceptance by president of the negociation board.

I do not comment on the "Conflict of interest" process, neither on the acceptance by the overlegcomité, for which I give the slightest importance (rights on this matter is quite a volatile concept). No, I comment on the text's core, the four points.

Those four points are the reason why Bourgeois calls a Conflict of interest. And the four points are all 100% correct.
(repeat:
http://www.lalibre.be/actu/politique-be ... 397f138c6a)

[Crosswind]

Point 1 : Brussels Airport is located on flemish territory. Nuisances are scattered all over, among other regions, Brussels. Brussels get prejudice from that way of use. Can the return to the sender really be considered as prejudice ? I'm not use to put my garbage in front of my neighbour's door daring, in case of smash return, c'est trop injuste.

Point 2 : maybe the most incredible. So by using their airport, flemish government takes, obviously, the right to transfer a public health problem to another region, and if the latter dares to complain, it's an infrigement to the flemish soil rights ? Come on !!

Point 3 : Federal loyalty. Federal loyalty ? in this country, is just a dream. Furthermore, from a separatist that kind of loyalty is to die of laughter.

Point 4 is useless since it's just a personal appreciation.

Total fail.

Nevertheless, in 60 days the dance will start.

[convair]

It's a very unfortunate situation.

The B region seems to have the law on its side (at least in 60 days). However, fines are not the best way to solve the problem. There were some meetings between the authorities involved; I haven't seen an argumented proposal from either side.

It definitely is a political matter, but with other aspects than purely "communautair" (health, safety...). In the present circumstances, I believe only a college of foreign experts would be able to make a balanced proposal, taking into account both technical and human aspects.

What I would like to see, btw, is a list of the flights that would be impacted: at what time of the day, which companies, which routes (canal, right turn, left turn), level of the fine.....

[Passenger]

Nevertheless, in 60 days the dance will start.

Sure, "60 days"? I bet on 120 days.

Figures from Belgocontrol (on VTM): departing flights 2015:
5.261 over Brussels downtown
38.565 over Noordrand (to make it easy: towards Tervuren)
40.294 only over Flanders

[Crosswind]

Nevertheless, in 60 days the dance will start.

Sure, "60 days"? I bet on 120 days.

Figures from Belgocontrol (on VTM): departing flights 2015:
5.261 over Brussels downtown
38.565 over Noordrand (to make it easy: towards Tervuren)
40.294 only over Flanders

Noordrand and Tervueren ? Could you clarify your figures ?

[EBBU]

38.565 over Noordrand (to make it easy: towards Tervuren)

Noordrand = Relegem (Asse), Wemmel, Hamme (Merchtem), Meise, Strombeek-Bever, Grimbergen en Beigem,
Koningslo en Het Voor (Vilvoorde)

So not 'towards Tervuren' and not a part of Brussels Capital Region but a part of Flanders.

[Passenger]

Indeed : should have been not Noordrand but towards Tervuren:

5.261 flights over Brussels
40.294 flights to Grimbergen, Meise, Wemmel, ...
38.565 flights to Woluwe, Tervuren

[Crosswind]

Ok, those seems "correct".

[lumumba]

Indeed : should have been not Noordrand but towards Tervuren:

5.261 flights over Brussels
40.294 flights to Grimbergen, Meise, Wemmel, ...
38.565 flights to Woluwe, Tervuren


luchtzak 2017 02 22 print screen vtm nieuws.jpg

I don't understand the 40.294 and 38.565 are first flying also over Brussels and this at a lower altitudes.

Or did I miss something...

[Passenger]

I don't understand the 40.294 and 38.565 are first flying also over Brussels and this at a lower altitudes.

Indeed. And repeat: "...Alles samen ondervinden 13.900 mensen potentieel zware hinder van het vliegtuiglawaai. Het gaat om 10.300 Vlamingen uit vooral Zaventem, Machelen, Steenokkerzeel en Vilvoorde, ten opzichte van 3.600 Brusselaars. Dat blijkt uit onderzoek van de UGent in 2015..."

University Ghent: "...severe noise hinder for 13.900 people: 10.300 inhabitants from Flanders (mainly Zaventem, Machelen, Steenokkerzeel, Vilvoorde), and 3.600 inhabitants from Brussels..."

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20170222_02745025

http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20170221 ... n=61864353

[Crosswind]

In any case, whatever the way in which the calculations are made, Brussels Regio has the right to impose noise restrictions over his territory.

Punt aan de lijn.

Edit : by the way, all the southern turns overflies Brussels. Rightly.

[Passenger]

In any case, whatever the way in which the calculations are made, Brussels Regio has the right to impose noise restrictions over his territory. Punt aan de lijn.

Indeed. Prof Van De Voorde (Universiteit Antwerpen) confirms your statement in Het Nieuwsblad: “Het probleem is dat ze in Brussel niet wakker lijken te liggen van een paar duizend jobs minder. Dat hoeft ook niet te verbazen, als je de tewerkstellingsgraad bekijkt in gemeenten als Schaarbeek en Sint-Jans-Molenbeek. Misschien moet Vlaanderen maar een manier vinden om hun visie door te voeren. Ik zeg niet dat we naar een chantage-oorlog moeten, maar er zijn middelen genoeg om Brussel op de knieën te krijgen.”

Translated, in brief: "...Brussels doesn't care about employment: just look at the unemployment figures for Schaerbeek and Molenbeek-Saint-Jean..."

Source
http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20170222_02745025

[Acid-drop]

Indeed : should have been not Noordrand but towards Tervuren:

5.261 flights over Brussels
40.294 flights to Grimbergen, Meise, Wemmel, ...
38.565 flights to Woluwe, Tervuren


luchtzak 2017 02 22 print screen vtm nieuws.jpg

I don't understand the 40.294 and 38.565 are first flying also over Brussels and this at a lower altitudes.

Or did I miss something...

indeed ... it's close to 100%...

[Crosswind]

Ok. Does flemish gvt care about those "thousands" of jobs at risk just because they refuse to adapt the spreading plan more equally ? Easy to do : take responsibility.

Wait and see