Wathelet dispersion plan for Brussels Airport

[Passenger]

The discussion here is about bru. And only bru.

When the secretary of State for Transport tells in the press that he wants to move cargo flights, charter flights and low cost flights "out of Brussels", the discussion is not anymore about Brussels only.

[Squelsh]

The discussion here is about bru. And only bru.

You think too local.. Anyone with some common sense can read between the lines and conclude that "more suitable airports", is meant to read CRL and LGG. The words 'hidden agenda not so hidden anymore' come to mind, I think it was put in a museum

Doubt that it'll be Ostend? Friday AP was handing out flowers for the passengers, because it is all good show and happiness at OST.
Below Multimdia snippet didn't get mentioned in this forum, let's.
http://www.focus-wtv.be/video/reacties- ... 1481237582

BTW, for charters, what are the curfew hours for CRL? For the full freighters (where curfew is important to take into account); is there a curfew at LGG and if so, what are the hours?

Nice touch to bring in the 'heavy' weight of Bert Anciaux into this discussion. Isn't that the guy who wanted to demolish Zaventem Intl airport and put an Olympic village there instead? Think I have something in my eye...

[Magiktrix]

Sorry in french only but this one is to good

Deleuze opinion

Is he really talking about moving the holding point of 25R 2000 m away. Could they just keep there political hands off. There plan are base on "Visions". Could these guys contact Airlines one day and say

"Hey guy's can you make globally less noise and fly more direct route"

For godsake its all we want to do

But for sure since Wathelet plan the sightseeing is beautiful.

[Acid-drop]

Everybody call that plan the wathelet plan although he hasnt made it and wasnt even there when the plan was voted by all parties.
No surprise then that the CDH has a lot to lose in the battle and is trying political move to turn this mess in their advantage.
Its very easy to promise less noise to brussels people when you dont need to take care about the other half of the country.

If only all party were national, it would simplify a lot everythinh, less bullshit talks then.

[teddybAIR]

Must be great to work in an environment with a total lack of accountability.

[sn47031]

Elections talks.
Now also Reynders wants to avoid flights over BRU capital.
As he is a frequent traveller, he should know that most of the flights turn to the right or the left at the "Noordrand" just to avoid BRU capital.

[Passenger]

The cdH proposals will be discussed during Friday's Ministerraad / Conseil des Ministres (18/04/2014).

Decisions taken during that meeting will be put online on this web page (after the meeting off course...):
NL:
http://www.premier.be/nl/cm
FR:
http://www.premier.be/fr/cm

[Passenger]

The European Parliement is to vote and presumably adopt today a text concerning the noise at airports in the EU. I don't know if it concerns the problem at Brussels, but it is perhaps worth taking it in account.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popu ... 9&l=en&t=D

The Regulation further harmonises, clarifies and strengthens the common rules on how decisions on noise related operating restrictions at EU airports, such as bans on night flights, are to be taken. The rules, which are based on principles agreed by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) and known as "Balanced Approach", cover in particular the assessment and management of aircraft noise and are designed to identify the most cost-efficient way of tackling aircraft noise at each individual airport. The Regulation only applies to larger airports, with more than 50 000 civil aircraft movements per year and does not establish specific noise thresholds, which remain within the competence of national or local authorities.

At the initiative of the EP, the local authorities would retain their powers to decide on noise related measures at airports, such as bans on night flights. Moreover, the Commission has been obliged to address health-related aspects of aviation noise by revising the Environmental Noise Directive 2002/49/EC. The Parliament's objectives have been, to a large extent, met in the negotiations with the Council and the Commission.

As usual, the European Commission is a bit more realistic then the European Parliament:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-444_en.htm

The regional authorities won't get carte blanche to do whatever they want. Before imposing a night ban, other measures will have to be implemented: "Noise restrictions are measures affecting the capacity of an airport to operate, for instance by introducing noise quotas, restricting the use of runways, phasing-out the noisiest aircraft or imposing night bans...";

Noise restrictions like those from the Brussels Capital Region will not stand with the new rules: it will have to be "evidence gathered on the basis of internationally recognized data and methods";

Airports and airlines will also have to be consulted: "Timely and substantial consultations with all stakeholders";

And at the end, federal governments (and not regional authorities) will have to take the decision: "Finally, national authorities will decide what is the acceptable level of noise for each specific case and find the most cost-effective solution to mitigate the noise impact".

[teddybAIR]

Has anybody got access to and the possibility to share info about the % of departures per SID in order to make the discussion a little bit more objective? The noordrand has always been very active in fighting noise, but not all departures are NIK2C or HELEN5C SID's

[Acid-drop]

France2 made a documentary about the issue.
They summarize : anywhere in the world, the planes take off depending on the wind, and try to avoid highly populated area. But in belgium, the language people speak can also influence the planes.

Once more, we look like clows. But no surprise : we are clowns.
http://www.lesoir.be/524188/article/act ... ce-2-video

[Squelsh]

Once more, we look like clows. But no surprise : we are clowns.

Off-topic, but speak for yourself.

[liege-bierset]

France2 made a documentary about the issue.
They summarize : anywhere in the world, the planes take off depending on the wind, and try to avoid highly populated area. But in belgium, the language people speak can also influence the planes.

Once more, we look like clows. But no surprise : we are clowns.
http://www.lesoir.be/524188/article/act ... ce-2-video

Yes they are right. In this case CDH, ECOLO and even MR are stupid enough to start a fight at one month of election day.
As usual Vlamings are to happy to see the mess, keeping quite and taking no risks. The other two are rolling for NVA.
Some of you keep to point CLR and LGG as Wathelet aficionados. They should know that Wathelet is candidate in Verviers Arrondissement, not in LGG and surely not in CLR. So this not possible for him, Milquet and Renders to grab one voice for the regional airport. And to be fair, we do our marking, our decisions our self and do not wait for BRU problems to progress our-own way. Like it or not.
It has been said here that only cargo airlines can decide to operate from Lgg, even they are pushed aways.
This fully correct.
Now look at FRA, not a mini cargo airport as BRU, they operate with a full night black-out and discuss (political opportunity) the move to extend it 2 more hours. Despite all the noise made by LH, they remain one of top three cargo airports in Europe. Zurich have total ban and reports nice volume
BRU with the exception of integrators are slowly tending to near total Pax Apt.
So why to obset neighbors at night, just close the shop (not simili curfew) . Leipzig are in the process (this year) to increase sorting capacity and a/c positions by 50%. Are you naive enough to believe they should keep sub-hubs as BRU when they are about to up-grade their fleet for bigger metal that B757.
Your neighbors (North, west, Zoulou, Chabert and you name it would be already to happy to have a real short night of rest.)
Comme disait un célèbre Flamand, encore en vie, cela demande 5 Minutes de courage politique ! For once, just try.
But next government, if we have one, will see "pure Vlaming" heading Aviation, BRU,Belgocontrol, SNCB, Army, Finance and all regalian ministers as this is more or less the case today with PM who believe to be in charge. He is just the puppet of a bunch of strings pullers.

[sn26567]

A European point of view in "The European Voice":

MEPs furious over Brussels flight paths
EU politicians this week used an airport noise vote to voice grievances over new Zaventem airport flight paths that send planes straight over the EU quarter.

MEPs have rejected a European Commission proposal that would allow the European Union to overrule local authority decisions on the banning of flights at certain times.

The vote taken yesterday (16 April) was a rubber-stamping of a decision taken back in January to reject this part of the airport noise proposal.

However, some MEPs saw this week's vote as an opportunity to bring up an airport noise issue closer to their hearts – new flight plans in Belgium that send planes from Zaventem airport straight over Brussels city centre and the EU quarter.

Since 6 February, planes taking off from Zaventem have been using a new route ordered by the Belgian federal government. The ‘Wathelet plan' – named after its designer Melchior Wathelet, Belgium's secretary of state of environment, energy, mobility and institutional reforms – has rerouted 80% of flights that used to fly over sparsely populated areas of Flanders east of Brussels. One hundred flights a day are now flying at low altitude through Brussels city - straight over the EU institutions.





The unilateral decision by the federal government is the result of five years of debate. A group of Brussels residents, many of whom work for EU institutions, have formed a grassroots campaign against the plan. They say Brussels would be the only city in Europe sending flights directly over its city centre. They are also pointing out security concerns over allowing planes to fly so low over the European Council building even while all of Europe's heads of state and government are inside.

During a debate on the airport noise proposal, Belgian Green MEP Isabelle Durant told the chamber that the topic “has an added and ironic significance in the context of the current situation at Belgium's main airport just outside of Brussels.” She said the plan has been introduced “with scant consultation and impact assessment [and] has seen flights now being directed towards the most-densely populated parts of the country in downtown Brussels, spreading the nuisance and increasing the risks instead of curbing them.”

Durant insisted that even with the ability to overrule local authorities taken out, the airports noise legislation as passed yesterday will still result in bad outcomes. Any decision taken about flight paths and flight restrictions will now have to involve local authorities and other stakeholders. Green campaigners fear this means the decisions will be forced to take economics into account over noise and pollution – meaning more flights.

“This is exactly the kind of ill-conceived policy and absurd outcome that will become increasingly common under these revised EU rules, which so narrowly confine the set of abatement measures available to those trying to tackle noise pollution around airports," Durant told the chamber.

However, an EU official who preferred not to be identified, said the Brussels example is an illustration of why the legislation is necessary. “The bickering between the regions and the illogical outcome we've ended up with is an example of why we need this legislation to make the process more transparent and neutral,” he said.

The grassroots campaign, called Pas Question, is collecting signatures against the new flight plan. Many in the group think it is not a coincidence that the planes are being diverted over sections of the city that are home to many foreign nationals – who can't vote in Belgian general elections.

The change has lowered noise levels for affluent areas to the east of the city, such as Woluwe-Saint-Pierre. Wathelet has defended the plan by saying that the levels of noise that these eastern suburbs were having to endure was unacceptable. But for the grassroots campaign, it looks to them like Brussels city is once again getting the short end of the stick in a classic ‘compromise à la Belge'.

[airazurxtror]

Some cheek, those Eurocrats !
I live in the EU quarter.
Much more annoying are the many "Summits" and international meetings those Eurocrats organize, and with all and sundry : not only European ministers but also with American, Chinese, Africans, and so on.
Each time, the whole quarter is cut off, only the bearers of EU badges are allowed inside, and the noisy police chopper keeps turning above the quarter, real low, and for hours.
The flights from BRU are much less of a nuisance, I can tell you.

[Established02]

"Brussels would be the only city in Europe sending flights directly over its city centre."

[Passenger]

Our honourable government didn't take a decision about the "cdH proposals" last Friday. There was a ferm discussion about "which articles of the constitution should be declared as revisable before the next elections?". They agreed to disagree, and the meeting ended without agreement. There is a new Ministeraad / Conseil Des Ministres on Monday.

[airazurxtror]

They say Brussels would be the only city in Europe sending flights directly over its city centre

They have never landed at Roma Ciampino ?
Flying nearly just over Roma Termini station, with a wonderful view of the whole city : il fiume Tevere, il Vaticano, il Colosseo, San Giovanni in Laterano ...

[Stij]

Couldn't agree more!
Lissabon
Milano Linate
Antwerp
...

Cheers,

Stij

[sn26567]

Milano Linate
Antwerp

Milano Linate has a night curfew and the number of daily flights is limited. And one cannot say that the heavy traffic at Antwerp disturbs a lot of people...

[Stij]

And one cannot say that the heavy traffic at Antwerp disturbs a lot of people...

According to the people in Borgerhout it does!