Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

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Passenger
Posts: 7266
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by Passenger »

werknemer wrote:so this is not about the money! it is more about respect again and again!
always respect!
Agree. But then, both ways please. In about every post here ("werknemer": thus not only from you), the employer is insulted and/or accused.

Is flying staff really the only staff group which is concentrating on their job, doing the right thing, keeping the airline in the air, earning the money?

And if indeed "management" is behaving that badly, can you please specify which white board criminals exactly you're talking about?

Bottom line : this whole topic - and specially the strike thread - reminds me to the last days at Sabena, when the last passengers were chased away by one strike after the other.

Air Key West
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Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by Air Key West »

No, your armchair CEO would not have turned around the company in the shortest possible time, but he would think before acting or making decisions and think about their implications for the compnay AND its employees ; he would also think : how will my employees react. B.air CEOs and managers live in an ivory tower or think that because they are the boss, they can get away with anything. Unlike you and others in the managerial hierarchy, I would try to motivate my "soldiers", not to demotivate them, like you are doing. In a service company, yours employees are your strongest asset. They will convince your clients to come back, not you. Please, take a few psychology lessons.
And your armchair CEO would not have accepted to squander six million euros in the DRC, he would have fought to invest the money where it would surely bring a return on investment. Well, actually I'm not a CEO, not even an armchair CEO unlike what some pretend, but looking from the outside, I'm just trying to see things with common sense, something too many people don't have anymore.

And this doesn't remind me of the last days of Sabena. At Sabena, all or at least most employees were among the best paid in the airline industry. At b.air, from what I hear, most staff are among the worst paid in the airline industry in Western Europe. So, you cannot compare the situation at sabena with the situation at b.air. Perhaps if sabeniens had accepted to work at the same conditions b.air staff are working now, sabena would still exist. This is the past. My understanding is that today b.air flight attendants are fighting in order to avoid that their already hard working conditions are not deteriorating again because of unilateral actions by the management.

And honestly, "passenger", it's not fair to call yourself a passenger (like me) when from the contents of your posts, one is bound to conclude that you must be somewhere in the management hierachy or close to it. Or I am wrong ?
In favor of quality air travel.

werknemer
Posts: 22
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by werknemer »

so SN1203, tell us how much do you earn at B AIR, what is your position, which leasing car you have, how many times you traveled paid by B AIR, what do you think about AIR DCn Korongo, Rwandair project, Cameroun projects?
I say again, this is not a matter of getting more money!
Just respect!
No, you are right, we will believe our management 100%!
as the money they use is not their money! Because it is our money!
most of staff our love their job and our proud of the company!
can we say the same about the decicion makers!
no! because most of them come from SABENA, and look what they did! make them self rich, got big compensation for bankruptcy and now work again in an airline!

werknemer
Posts: 22
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by werknemer »

passenger wrote:Agree. But then, both ways please. In about every post here ("werknemer": thus not only from you), the employer is insulted and/or accused.

Is flying staff really the only staff group which is concentrating on their job, doing the right thing, keeping the airline in the air, earning the money?

And if indeed "management" is behaving that badly, can you please specify which white board criminals exactly you're talking about?

Bottom line : this whole topic - and specially the strike thread - reminds me to the last days at Sabena, when the last passengers were chased away by one strike after the other.
we don't want the chase passenger! We perform every day the best we can to comply our passengers!
with WE i mean every one! form drivers, reservation agents, check-in, security, pilots, some managers, technicions, FA, and all the others from outside belgium and the one i forgot!

so don't say we chase them!
we want the best for them like the best for the company and us!
what they do and who , this is not the place to tell!
Last edited by sn26567 on 31 Oct 2011, 22:05, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Corrected quotes

Passenger
Posts: 7266
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by Passenger »

Air Key West wrote:And honestly, "passenger", it's not fair to call yourself a passenger (like me) when from the contents of your posts, one is bound to conclude that you must be somewhere in the management hierachy or close to it. Or I am wrong ?
Yes, you are completely and totally wrong. I have never been on the pay roll, direct or indirect, from Sabena nor Brussels Airlines. Forum administrators and a few luchtzak members who know me from private messages are free to correct this.

Your post confirms what I've said : if crew continues to blame management, Brussels Airlines is doomed to fail just like Sabena. Only difference is that ten years ago you've blamed Swissair and the belgian governement, whilst this time it will be Lufthansa and Davignon/Lippens. Unless.

SN1203
Posts: 129
Joined: 20 Sep 2007, 20:11

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by SN1203 »

FlightMate wrote:Do you mind giving arguments to counter the ones from the union?
Umm no thanks, first of all I'm not involved and secondly I won't waste my time reacting to a union pamflet.
Air Key West wrote:No, your armchair CEO would not have turned around the company in the shortest possible time, but he would think before acting or making decisions and think about their implications for the compnay AND its employees ; he would also think : how will my employees react.
To be honest, I don't think you are in a position to judge on all of this.
Air Key West wrote: Unlike you and others in the managerial hierarchy
It's not because I'd rather defend the company's point of view that you have to automatically assume that I'm part of the management or even work for the company.
Air Key West wrote:he would have fought to invest the money where it would surely bring a return on investment.
In the past months I've seen some of your innovative ideas for investments, the only thing I'm sure of is that you'd get your a** fired pretty quickly.
Air Key West wrote:I'm just trying to see things with common sense
We should probably align on a definition of 'common sense' :roll:
werknemer wrote:so SN1203, tell us how much do you earn at B AIR, what is your position, which leasing car you have, how many times you traveled paid by B AIR, what do you think about AIR DCn Korongo, Rwandair project, Cameroun projects?
My point is that you have to have pretty accurate sources to judge on projects like what SN is doing in Africa (Cameroun, AirDC), and sorry to say so but you won't be correctly informed by listening to the gossip in your crew room.
werknemer wrote:most of staff our love their job and our proud of the company!
can we say the same about the decicion makers!
no! because most of them come from SABENA, and look what they did! make them self rich, got big compensation for bankruptcy and now work again in an airline!
Blablabla, thanks for copying a typical Socialist leaflet! Even though I don't have the right sources, even though I don't have sufficient information to form a real opinion, let's blame it all on the management! It's all the fault of the rich managers driving big BMWs making unilateral decisions from ivory towers without caring about the staff! Yes, it's really that simple! :roll:

BrusselsAirlines
Posts: 118
Joined: 07 Nov 2006, 18:29

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by BrusselsAirlines »

Is the news about the fired staff in Lumumbashi correct?

Air Key West
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Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by Air Key West »

Dear Passenger and SN1203, so you're not on the airline's payroll. Then, just as there are perhaps hardline trade unionist around, you must be or at least sound like hardline employers. Now, don't tell me you're not even employers ; that would make your case even worse.

And no, ten years ago, I did not blame solely Swissair and the Belgian government for the demise of sabena, but I didn't either blame solely the employees and their unions for the grounding of the airline. Everybody with a bit of common sense and acting in good faith will admit that all three parties had their share of responsibility.

As to b.air flight attendants, if they applied for the job and stay on the job, it's because they like their job, but that doesn't mean you can pay them peanuts and make them work under any working conditions you deem fit (but wouldn't accept for yourself).
In favor of quality air travel.

SN1203
Posts: 129
Joined: 20 Sep 2007, 20:11

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by SN1203 »

Air Key West wrote:it's because they like their job, but that doesn't mean you can pay them peanuts
For me it's really the end of the discussion, but as a last piece of advice: just try to figure out what an SN cabin crew member earns on average per month. I can agree that the share between gross wages and allowances should shift a little, but still, as a total package, a cabin crew member in a typical month (sometimes it's a bit more, sometimes a bit less) earns way more compared to a hell of a lot of other jobs. Those people who are complaining about the money they earn should spend some time on the salary simulator of vacature.com to get a bit of a reality check.

Air Key West
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Location: BRU

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by Air Key West »

And btw, SN1203, if I would already have been fired because of my innovative investment ideas, why is it that those great investment strategists responsible for the mess with Air DC and Korongo haven't been fired yet ? "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" (George Orwell, in case you were not sure anymore).
In favor of quality air travel.

Air Key West
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Location: BRU

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by Air Key West »

Dear SN1203, you tell me I should not assume you even work for the company. So, please, tell us all how it comes you seem to know in details what a f/a earns and how he/she reaches the generous pay check at the end of the month. As a passenger, I have a lot of respect for f/a because they have a tough job, they work unsocial hours, they have to be fluent in three languages and must have some psychology skills, too, btw.
In favor of quality air travel.

SN1203
Posts: 129
Joined: 20 Sep 2007, 20:11

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by SN1203 »

Air Key West wrote:So, please, tell us all how it comes you seem to know in details what a f/a earns and how he/she reaches the generous pay check at the end of the month.
Actually, you are the one shouting cabin crew is earning peanuts, so before making such a statement YOU should know in details what a cabin crew member earns :roll:
Air Key West wrote:As a passenger, I have a lot of respect for f/a because they have a tough job, they work unsocial hours, they have to be fluent in three languages and must have some psychology skills, too, btw.
As a passenger, I can only share your opinion (and should add that I've always been pleased with the service I've received from SN cabin crew!).

Flanker
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by Flanker »

SN1203 wrote: Oh God Do us all a favour and post here what you earn on average on a monthly basis (including per diems and stuff)... and don't come up with 1.750 EUR net (which most of the office people don't earn btw).

Please do ask your management about the cost of the X-mass party and get back to us. BTW, it's not 'they' who are having a X-mass party, it's also 'you' who is having a party.

Respect is a matter of perception, ever thought you're maybe (badly) influenced by some negative colleagues? Reading all the horror stories here, I'm getting surprised that the company you work for is even able to get a plane airborne... maybe it's not so bad afterall?

To me it looks like you need to hire Air_Key_West as soon as possible, who (as a qualified armchair CEO) would be able to turn things around at the shortest possible time with the best strategic decisions!
If you take all ground staff and flight crews together, my estimated average net salary will be in the region of 1600€-1700 if you include people who are on 75% to 100% contracts . This is using a median projection of each department and includes the higher paid (but still underpaid) pilots, working irregular hours and week-ends very often on 7-2, 7-3 rosters in high responsibility jobs.

As far as I can see and I talk a lot with a lot of people from different departments, optimistic colleagues are becoming a rare animal.

As to Xmas parties, people who should be doing other things will be busy preparing and tidying up for the Xmas Party. This costs money as well.
From the staff point of view, I think that the staff would appreciate much more if the CEO's would take the time to gather small groups of max. 20 people during 1 hour meetings (on the field, inside the aircraft would be a perfect place to do this!) and explain to all the staff one by one what went wrong with Korongo and the financials of 2011 and also talk directly with the staff without the intimidating presence of the managers, on how the processes in the company can be improved and how certain issues can be resolved together.
Something like this will be essential to re-unite the company and solve key issues that are lost in translation.

In my opinion, this will be much more productive than a Xmas party and would take approximately 1 week during which, on top of the exchange of mutual respect, the CEO's can go back to their offices with a lot of first hand material for improvement and opportunities that they can't see from their office window or from the *ss-kissing talks of their managers.

I think that the CEO's are trying hard. They might not be doing it right but they're trying hard.
For example, I don't blame them for the 2009 fuel hedge loss. They probably took this speculative decision in mid-2008 to make sure that the company would be able to stay in business if fuel prices stayed that high. I would have done the same if I were in their position.
Korongo was also a nice idea and project, but here they have no excuses. They can point all the fingers they want, they signed off on it and it was their job to follow up and to make sure that the sister company wouldn't pose a problem for their own company. The impact is not as big as the fuel hedge loss but here there was something that they could have prevented.

What I disagree even more about is the volume & market share strategy of 2011 (which has had a big impact on the yields and the result and I think that when we see the year-end results, the current loss projections are optimistic) and the total rejection of the business case of improving the C class in Europe to draw more traffic from airlines competing on the same city to city routes.
Here again, it's probably not 100% their fault as they don't have much experience in the airline industry but some common sense and open-mindedness to at least do trials would have been warranted.

As to blaming a pax who criticised the "smallness" of the compensation he was offered (really they didn't offer much) when he received a load of Skydrol on his body and clothes, shows that they're not in touch with the reality of the passengers and the field.
Instead, they could have turned it into a huge publicity stunt by offering each of those pax a year long pass on all SN flights, excluding airport taxes. The media outlets would have picked it up and voila, cheap publicity and happy customers.
You would even have customers praying to get a load of Skydrol on their next flight!

SN1203, You're entitled to your opinion and you're probably higher management. ;)
How else could you have posted something like that:
Please do ask your management about the cost of the X-mass party and get back to us. BTW, it's not 'they' who are having a X-mass party, it's also 'you' who is having a party.
The fact is, the unions at Sabena were asking for huge privileges, but the failure of Sabena was a direct result of the failure of its mother company. The unions contributed to the losses and to the failure and were also the reason why the Belgian government didn't want to help out SN and preferred a re-start from DAT, which had a more modest workforce and unions.
10 years later, it's a totally different situation where the workforce isn't asking for more than the absolute minimum of decency.
Is it fair that your director who btw is not the business owner, uses the money he saves on you to make speculative placements and then doesn't supervise them as they should be.

regi
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Location: Bruges

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by regi »

I did write already some words about managers in the past.
In general I would blame a strike to the managment. Simple reasoning: if it is the task of a manger to make a company workable, and he cannot avoid a strike, well, he has done something wrong.

Some managers get a bonus if they can present a saving at the end of the year ( hey, October is quite near the end ;) )
A HR manager will not get a bonus if he cannot avoid a pay rise. Simple.
It is exactly the same as with the purchasing department. A purchasing manager ( sometimes) gets a bonus on savings - or if it is in a year where everything gets more expensive, he can stay below the expected cost increase.
Exactly the same with the sales department.
A HR manager is a kind of purchaser of human labor.
And now we see the clash of the managers. The HR is fighting for his bonus by avoiding salary increases. And everyday that personnel goes on strike, his budget doesn't go down. Very worrying, this idea !
Against him stand the Sales manager who looks at dwindling figures of customers who run away. He has to invest more than expected with the marketing boys. And gone is his bonus.

This is a general situation. I don't know the details at SN, Air France or other airlines. But if you think about those simple facts, it makes you start to think.

Oh yes, firing a manager is quite expensive as well...

cnc
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by cnc »

werknemer wrote:As you can read CNC and all other anti B AIR staff
wow hold on, a lot of the brussels airlines staff are people i know from the sabena times and later on during handling flightcare-SN so i'm not anti SN staff!
i just think the FA's should realise they are not the only driving force behind SN and they are not the only SN employees that are underpaid.
in reality most of the jobs in aviation are underpaid. just look at what aircraft cleaners earn

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tolipanebas
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by tolipanebas »

Flanker wrote: I think that the CEO's are trying hard. They might not be doing it right but they're trying hard.
For example, I don't blame them for the 2009 fuel hedge loss. They probably took this speculative decision in mid-2008 to make sure that the company would be able to stay in business if fuel prices stayed that high. I would have done the same if I were in their position.
Mind you, fuel hedging is done exeptionally poor at SN and I really have a HUGE ISSUE with SN over the amateuristic methods used by them! No wonder that for the last 3 years, they've always hedged wrong on a medium term (i.e. year) basis: wrong over 2009, wrong over 2010 and wrong over 2011 too...

I don't know how into the details you are on hedging strategies and this probably isn't the place to discuss it either, but I can assure you the incremental forward looking heding strategy applied by LH, albeit much more complex, is by far a much more effective method than the rather naive contractual hedges used by SN...

SN should let LH do its hedging, or better still: use fuel from the LH hedge: this company's results would be quite different then, I can assure you! If you want to pick a fight with SN's management, pick fuel hedging: there are not many things where they have such a poor track record on as this really!
Flanker wrote:What I disagree much more about is the volume & market share strategy of 2011 (which has had a big impact on the yields and the result and I think that when we see the year-end results, the current loss projections are optimistic).
Well you are still plain wrong on that, as that was a strategic decision that made a lot of sense: it allowed SN to become much more of what LH wants us to be in future AND it improved on our operational figures greatly at the same time. Without it, the result for 2011 would be even worse still as it would have prevented us from making more money during the profitable summer period.

Let's face it: this airline will be a LH subsidiary, or it will not be at all.
The idea SN will somehow be able to survive as a stand alone in future is simply naive, so in this context everything that doesn't make SN more attractive to LH and doesn't prepare it for full integration in LH is by definition a non-strategic decision, notwithstanding any positive impact on the financial results it may have.

Lets be frank here for a minute, shall we?
LH most probably couldn't care less whether SN makes for instance 10M operational profit or 20M operational loss as a self-operating airline in the period prior to the full take-over; what they want to get their hands on is an airline which they can use right away as a valuable brand next to their own product to attack AF-KL with on AFI!
This is why your fragmentation-tactic on Europe with a huge fleet of TPs is basically pointless: LH doesn't want to hear of it as it doesn't fit into the wider group's strategy: SN must focus on longhaul routes to AFI and build a limited feeder network of EU and North American routes for that. Operating let's say 5 times daily to for instance BUD and trying to connect the Hungarian capital with as many EU destinations as possible through BRU with a huge fleet of TPs is miles away from that. In fact, LH does that already through FRA and MUC and they can do so with much more efficient and comfortable planes thanks to their higher pax volumes, so not only would you be fighting against airlines of your own group, you'd be fighting an uphill battle if you were to do that, which is why it really isn't a good strategy at all.
I've told you before: you really must start thinking from a LH perspective rather than just think of SN and BRU as a stand alone here: everything else is basically pointless and will lead to wrong strategies.

Anyway, all of this is quite off topic, I agree, so sorry for that, guys and girls! :)

airazurxtror
Posts: 3769
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by airazurxtror »

They should think again before going on strike : the Air France cabin crew strike did not meet with a full success, rather a full flop ...

werknemer
Posts: 22
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by werknemer »

I really think more and more that you work for BRU AIR!

How we're sure!
8-) i think you know it even better then we do!i was going to wright it down, but i won't.
poeple outside the company don't need to know what is going on in our company
and also the radicals believer that the BRU AIR staff are the bad ones, would find another excuse to acuse us of all the bad things that happened to our company!

so just keep flying with us and enjoy our service outside and inside the plane
and maybe see you one day at the check-in counter or the gate


BrusselsAirlines
Posts: 118
Joined: 07 Nov 2006, 18:29

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by BrusselsAirlines »

The arabian desert will be welcoming many more Belgians soon :)

Who dares to believe in a bright future for this company?
A 70 million € loss will probably also mean a managment change. Should we expect this to happen any time soon?

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