Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

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werknemer
Posts: 22
Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by werknemer »

cnc wrote:
Air Key West wrote: I once flew with Thomas Cook to Hurghada and the air hostesses were sollicited practically nonstop by passengers, especially families with young children. They did not have time to rest. At the end of the return flight, they really looked exhausted. They had been in that plane for more than ten hours. I think this is close to inhuman working conditions.
please don't try to make SN and FQ equal in work conditions. those at FQ are far more worse.
its unfair towards all other SN personel if the FA's will strike
Well why not compare SN FA to working conditions of AF , BA or LH FA? :?:
BRU AIR like to pretend to be a major airline! Part of the STAR ALL!
so if they want to be a real airline, they can start to respect their staff like real companies does!
By the way most of the staff of B air is more then tired of working the load, bad management, lies, "duty travels" for some days everywhere, arrogance of some managers, no lack of future plans for more then 6 years, wasting our money we worked very hard in projects that look more like colonial projects and much more other things!

When someone from gate, check-in, reservation, fa or fd or even technician makes a mistake they go to their boss for explanation! But our management is burning our money in something that nobody understood and with the biggest secret that only 10 people really know what is going on, while the staff gets the news via press or the tam tam Africain!

So please! Stop to be blind by giving the staff the fault of all the bad things that happen to BRU AIR and see objectively what the real problems are; for more then 6 years now!
Last edited by sn26567 on 30 Oct 2011, 20:20, edited 1 time in total.
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grychnqck
Posts: 2
Joined: 30 Oct 2011, 20:28

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by grychnqck »

Yep it seems that indeed SN has the most lazy attendants in Belgium, and their demands are very close to extreme stupidity.
They all talk about SABENA was better? At 40 their career was finished !!!!!

Hear hear

cnc
Posts: 1311
Joined: 19 May 2009, 16:14

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by cnc »

werknemer wrote: By the way most of the staff of B air is more then tired of working the load, bad management, lies, "duty travels" for some days everywhere, arrogance of some managers, no lack of future plans for more then 6 years, wasting our money we worked very hard in projects that look more like colonial projects and much more other things!

When someone from gate, check-in, reservation, fa or fd or even technician makes a mistake they go to their boss for explanation! But our management is burning our money in something that nobody understood and with the biggest secret that only 10 people really know what is going on, while the staff gets the news via press or the tam tam Africain!

So please! Stop to be blind by giving the staff the fault of all the bad things that happen to BRU AIR and see objectively what the real problems are; for more then 6 years now!
then they should unite and take actions together. now the FA's want to strike to get more money, care to explain how this helps the other SN employees?

fcw
Posts: 765
Joined: 01 Nov 2006, 23:20

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by fcw »

A triagular flight to Egypt is a 14 hours working day starting at 6 o clock in the morning!
My last JAF flight was a return from Taba, the FA had to open the storage area in the ceiling which contains the first aid kit, she didn't even remember which side came down, says it all...

fcw
Posts: 765
Joined: 01 Nov 2006, 23:20

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by fcw »

SN1203 wrote: I wonder if the unions would dare to post here how "little" these compensations are on average. It would be a serious eye-opener and stop the discussions on how 'poorly paid' SN's cabin crew would be according to the unions.

You already have to have a serious position within any company to beat the average net salary (including all compensations) of SN cabin crew.

In the press they'll always refer to the base salary of course, "forgetting" about all the other compensation systems for nightstops etc.

If a flight attendant receives 50€ to pay for a pizza and a diet coke in Kinshasa, you consider that salary ??

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by Passenger »

werknemer wrote: Well why not compare SN FA to working conditions of AF , BA or LH FA? :?:
BRU AIR like to pretend to be a major airline! Part of the STAR ALL!
so if they want to be a real airline, they can start to respect their staff like real companies does!
By the way most of the staff of B air is more then tired of working the load, bad management, lies, "duty travels" for some days everywhere, arrogance of some managers, no lack of future plans for more then 6 years, wasting our money we worked very hard in projects that look more like colonial projects and much more other things!

When someone from gate, check-in, reservation, fa or fd or even technician makes a mistake they go to their boss for explanation! But our management is burning our money in something that nobody understood and with the biggest secret that only 10 people really know what is going on, while the staff gets the news via press or the tam tam Africain!

So please! Stop to be blind by giving the staff the fault of all the bad things that happen to BRU AIR and see objectively what the real problems are; for more then 6 years now!
Seems you are working for Brussels Airlines - six years already, I read. Amazing. If I would work somewhere where it is that bad as you say here, I would stay there for 6 weeks maximum. What's the reason you're staying there? Anything to do with the salary? But then, it's typically Belgian that employees sh** on their employer in public.
werknemer wrote: But our management is burning our money in something that nobody understood and with the biggest secret that only 10 people really know what is going on, while the staff gets the news via press or the tam tam Africain!
Indeed. And actually, it's good that strategic decisions - realized or not - are kept secret untill it's time to get the bookings. Freund hört mit, they say in German. Example: Air Tanzania. Out of business since December 2008. But suddenly, they advise that they will be back in business, within few weeks already:
http://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/busines ... 7jkrswz/-/

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b.lufthansa
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by b.lufthansa »

sn26567 wrote:I understand that the problem with the SN flights to Egypt is that they are triangular (e.g. Brussels-Taba-Hurghada-Brussels), which leads to long working times. However, I don't understand where the problems are, if sufficient rest is given afterwards. I see that already now Jetairfly is also flying triangles between Brussels-Taba-Cairo-Brussels.
Perhaps you don't know but this flight to Taba and Hurghada is not covered by the collective labour agreement!

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tolipanebas
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by tolipanebas »

sn26567 wrote:I understand that the problem with the SN flights to Egypt is that they are triangular (e.g. Brussels-Taba-Hurghada-Brussels), which leads to long working times. However, I don't understand where the problems are, if sufficient rest is given afterwards.
Rest after a duty can not take away the fatigue and even exhaustion during a duty, hence there needs to be a limit on the duty length...

Would you be feeling perfectly okay on board a plane, knowing the crew in charge of your physical safety and security is going to be up and running for over 16 hours or more by the time they need to prepare for landing in BRU?

Well, that's exactly the case for SN's crews on those Egyptian triangulars, if management were to have its way.

FWIW, I don't know if you fully realize it, but BRU-TCP-HRG-BRU is just the same as a Brussels-Honolulu flight with 2 intermediate stops, all of that done with one and the same crew on a constant duty! :shock:

Ever been on a long haul flight, with 2 stops, to the other side of the world? Still remember how you felt at the end of it? And mind you, you were merely a pax then! Now imagine working on that same flight!
sn26567 wrote: I see that already now Jetairfly is also flying triangles between Brussels-Taba-Cairo-Brussels.
Yes, and they can do so because they don't have a CLA on flight duty times at all; JAF makes their crews fly at the maximum legal duty times as published by our Belgian CAA, rules which are in violation of newly proposed and scientifically supported (but not yet accepted) European rules on maximum duty times, BTW.

In this context it is interesting to mention the Belgian CAA is the only CAA from a JAR country still allowing such type of long triangular duties in the absence of a more strict European rule on it; don't for a second think you'll find any charter airline from a neighbouring country of ours doing the same kind of long duties with multiple stops with one and the same crew, so that effectively makes JAF and Thomas Cook the only 2 airlines in the whole of continental Europe still doing this type of extremely fatiguing flights and guess what: SN absolutely wants to be the 3rd one, allegedly because "others" do it too. :roll:

cnc
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Joined: 19 May 2009, 16:14

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by cnc »

tolipanebas wrote: Rest after a duty can not take away the fatigue and even exhaustion during a duty, hence there needs to be a limit on the duty length...

Would you be feeling perfectly okay on board a plane, knowing the crew in charge of your physical safety and security is going to be up and running for over 16 hours or more by the time they need to prepare for landing in BRU?

Well, that's exactly the case for SN's crews on those Egyptian triangulars, if management were to have its way.

FWIW, I don't know if you fully realize it, but BRU-TCP-HRG-BRU is just the same as a Brussels-Honolulu flight with 2 intermediate stops, all of that done with one and the same crew on a constant duty! :shock:

Ever been on a long haul flight, with 2 stops, to the other side of the world? Still remember how you felt at the end of it? And mind you, you were merely a pax then! Now imagine working on that same flight!
sn26567 wrote: I see that already now Jetairfly is also flying triangles between Brussels-Taba-Cairo-Brussels.
Yes, and they can do so because they don't have a CLA on flight duty times at all; JAF makes their crews fly at the maximum legal duty times as published by our Belgian CAA, rules which are in violation of newly proposed and scientifically supported (but not yet accepted) European rules on maximum duty times, BTW.

In this context it is interesting to mention the Belgian CAA is the only CAA from a JAR country still allowing such type of long triangular duties in the absence of a more strict European rule on it; don't for a second think you'll find any charter airline from a neighbouring country of ours doing the same kind of long duties with multiple stops with one and the same crew, so that effectively makes JAF and Thomas Cook the only 2 airlines in the whole of continental Europe still doing this type of extremely fatiguing flights and guess what: SN absolutely wants to be the 3rd one, allegedly because "others" do it too. :roll:
so a pay raise will fix the FA's fatigue problem on those routes? cool, money does solve everything

BrusselsAirlines
Posts: 118
Joined: 07 Nov 2006, 18:29

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by BrusselsAirlines »

Indeed, it is a trend in the cpy to adapt things to the negative and downward trend.

Thomas Cook (where pilots & cabin crew MUST leave after a few years because of sleep & health problems) does this or that then we too...problem was there when the contract was negotiated so no surprise today.

Virgin Express pilots have better more stable contracts. Adapt them to the lower SN salaries. Now we are phasing out the 737's and we have 80 pilots too much that don't want (and don't have) to sign the new contract. What a surprise...

It's all this non problem solving at the start of an event that leads to these kind of situations some years later.

We are flying loads of people with the best loadfactor Brussels has ever seen but we need to reduce capacity by next summer...or are we trading 3 medium haul aircraft per one longhaul?
A risky strategy?
There is good stuff going on but there is also lots of mistery and bizare decisions. It's really time for a long term strategy and planning.


Btw Is this really true that all Korongo staff is sacked? If so why no communication on that evolution?? It's been mentioned hundreds of times how important this project is...Should we worry?

Flanker
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Joined: 16 Jul 2011, 21:05

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by Flanker »

cnc wrote:then they should unite and take actions together. now the FA's want to strike to get more money, care to explain how this helps the other SN employees?
Oh you don't want to go there ;)
There's a serious social unrest among all categories of operational personnel.
The issues are common: work rosters and salaries.
However, cabin crew need this more than the others. The good people are just overworked and deserve to have a minimum, especially as most go into SN with the passion of making it a lifelong career and not just as a fun summer job.

Also, as I said, the unions in place are very understanding for the problems of the company.
A strike of only flight attendants is one thing but a general strike among non-management personnel can have a disastrous impact and have operational repercusions weeks or even months down the line.
That's something that you can do sometimes at very big companies with a lot of money, but for SN in its current condition, it would be crazy.

It's not in the union's interest to bring the company down either.
cnc wrote:so a pay raise will fix the FA's fatigue problem on those routes? cool, money does solve everything
What would you prefer? Being just tired, or being tired AND poor? :D
That put aside, cabin crew and their unions want SN to hire more CC's to attack this fatigue and rostering problem. The low salary is another problem. As you see, these are many overlapping problems.
SN management doesn't want to invest the extra money of hiring the extra people, so CC's want more money so they are better paid for their hard work, which compensates a little for the salary problem they have.
In the negotiations, it was agreed that SN would increase the CC salary by 7% AND that further negotiations would take place with regards to extra hires and a rationalisation for Egypt flights.
Management is now declining extra hires and the union is in exchange declining Egypt, and the management wants to punish them double, so they retracted the 7% pay increase promise.

The management is also communicating badly about this matter (can't share details unfortunately). It's either arrogance or desperation but with the arguments they are using, they're only adding fuel to the fire and look foolish.
cnc wrote:please don't try to make SN and FQ equal in work conditions. those at FQ are far more worse.
its unfair towards all other SN personel if the FA's will strike
In Belgium, you don't have much choice. Thomas Cook, Jetair and TNT don't offer real careers and for people with family and children, it's more difficult to organize their lives.
Flightcare, Aviapartner and Sabena Technics aren't exactly employers of choice either.
Salaries in all companies are quite low, it's just that many people like the company Brussels Airlines itself and wear its logo with pride, but don't like the people who are running it.

Most co-workers at SN are showing solidarity towards the CC's, because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and they understand very well what they're going through. Sure, the customer service staff could have more work and complaints to deal with if real actions are taken (which is rare in SNBA's history), but the fact that it will put management under pressure will make them feel better about it.

In my opinion, the executives better convince LH to buy SN completely this year while optimism is still present. If they are unable to do even that, then there willl be no reason anymore for them to show up for work.

grychnqck
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Joined: 30 Oct 2011, 20:28

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by grychnqck »

Hear hear !

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tolipanebas
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by tolipanebas »

cnc wrote:so a pay raise will fix the FA's fatigue problem on those routes? cool, money does solve everything
No it doesn't, which is why the 2 issues are to be kept apart, yet management absolutely wants them to be linked together: 'you get your money if you do everything we ask for'.

Dealing with flying staff as if they are just prostitutes, doesn't that sound familiar? :roll:

in this context it is interesting to note there's no problem on BRU-TCP-HRG-BRU, other than the one management has willingly created itself... Indeed, they could easily operate this single flight the way they want it to by using just management-pilots and management cabin crew: those will be happy to forgo on their CLA based working conditions and fly up to the legal limits, yet management wants to enforce new general rules to all, so they can then sell not only a once weekly triangular to Egypt, but who knows what else in future too...

There are limits as to what flying staff can do in order to help put this airline back on its feet, something senior management just doesn't seem to be willing to understand! They genuinely think flying staff can and should be able and willing to somehow magically make good for absolutely everything that goes wrong in this airline, from yet another broken business class seat on the old A330s, over accepting almost constant lastminute roster changes when things turn nasty somewhere in Africa once more, right up to bending over backwards so this airline can make a few hundred of thousands of euro from operating irresponsibly long triangular charter flights in the cheapest possible way.

Given the current extremely competitive pay-work conditions at SN compared to other airlines in the LH group of airlines and STAR alliance, there's really not a single reason at all why the flying community of SN should be beaten the way they are right now by our senior management, yet this company seems to think it it perfectly okay to put us all on a permanent scramble mission from JAN 1st till DEC 31st solely to compensate for the bunch of strategic distractors and tactical errors which management is constantly wasting lots and lots of money on...

Rather than constantly whine about the few thousands euro the nightstop in Egypt is costing us per month, why not dedicate a few words of sorry to the millions lost on other projects and maybe just maybe take the long-due steps to avoid yet another such event in future??? After all, I hate to point it out, but it IS already a repeat, remember? Oh, that's right: it was "just 5 million euro", so not even worth mentioning, dixit one of our co-CEOs! :roll:


SN1203
Posts: 129
Joined: 20 Sep 2007, 20:11

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by SN1203 »

b.lufthansa wrote:Interesting article: http://aclvb-cgslb.blogspot.com/2011/10 ... agers.html
Really interesting indeed, let's all start reading union blogspots to get an accurate and unbiased view on what's happening in a company and how the social talks are proceeding :roll:

airazurxtror
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by airazurxtror »

tolipanebas wrote: Rather than constantly whine about the few thousands euro the nightstop in Egypt is costing us per month, why not dedicate a few words of sorry to the millions lost on other projects
Assuming that to be true :
don't the millions allegedly lost on projects make it still more pressing to spare even a few thousend whenever possible ?

werknemer
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Joined: 23 Mar 2007, 13:57

Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by werknemer »

As you can read CNC and all other anti B AIR staff, we do NOT want more money just like that!
since the start Of the company there was NO increase of our salary!!
When the merge with VEX they changed 6 euro a hour and reduced our prdm amount!
If your wife is buying the most expensive clothes to use to work in the garden en when and when i need new winter shoes because i don't have and she says walk naked because we have no more money! I am very curious to know what you will do!

because that is what is going on with us!They say that they will loose money and they are having a Christmas party!!!

use the money to close the gap of the only "6 millions" we gave away to the corrupted politicians and other people in RDC! With all the money the put in the planes they could refurnish almost one 330!

so this is not about the money! it is more about respect again and again!
always respect!

ps: we have to be careful what we write on forums and facebook, because one of our VP, has nothing else to do during working hours to check it! yes!!! I don't know how much he earns but i am sure more then 3000, so more then any ground staff of FA or technician who has to smile with the decisions our management takes!
oh, and when we ask Mr Gustin, about Korongo, he says, those questions you have to ask to Michel, he is in charge of the project!!!!

SN1203
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by SN1203 »

If your wife is buying the most expensive clothes to use to work in the garden en when and when i need new winter shoes because i don't have and she says walk naked because we have no more money! I am very curious to know what you will do!
Oh God :roll: Do us all a favour and post here what you earn on average on a monthly basis (including per diems and stuff)... and don't come up with 1.750 EUR net (which most of the office people don't earn btw).
They say that they will loose money and they are having a Christmas party!!!
Please do ask your management about the cost of the X-mass party and get back to us. BTW, it's not 'they' who are having a X-mass party, it's also 'you' who is having a party.
so this is not about the money! it is more about respect again and again!
Respect is a matter of perception, ever thought you're maybe (badly) influenced by some negative colleagues? Reading all the horror stories here, I'm getting surprised that the company you work for is even able to get a plane airborne... maybe it's not so bad afterall?

To me it looks like you need to hire Air_Key_West as soon as possible, who (as a qualified armchair CEO) would be able to turn things around at the shortest possible time with the best strategic decisions! :mrgreen:

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by RoMax »

werknemer wrote:
ps: we have to be careful what we write on forums and facebook, because one of our VP, has nothing else to do during working hours to check it! yes!!! I don't know how much he earns but i am sure more then 3000, so more then any ground staff of FA or technician who has to smile with the decisions our management takes!
I'm not going to comment on the whole matter of sallary, working conditions, ... as I don't know enough about it. But about the forum, facebook, twitter,... things. I don't say I agree with this kind of working. But you can be 100% sure this is common business with all big companies. Companies check people online before they hire them (some companies admit this, others not, but they all do it) and they continue to do it when they are working for the company. Especially people who have "sensitive" information are checked extensively of fc, twitter, forums,...
This doesn't mean I agree with such business and especially with the fact that someone gets a big sallary for this, but you can hardly blame SN for this. Otherwise you have to blame the whole world (and be happy you don't live in a county like China)

FlightMate
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Re: Brussels Airlines flight attendants strike?

Post by FlightMate »

SN1203 wrote: Really interesting indeed, let's all start reading union blogspots to get an accurate and unbiased view on what's happening in a company and how the social talks are proceeding :roll:
Do you mind giving arguments to counter the ones from the union?

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