Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

[FlightMate]

I'm not very aware of the situation of our ryanair colleagues.
But are they entitled to a pension or to social security in Belgium?
If not, why should they share the pain?

If everybody's got to pay belgian taxes, then they should at least get the same benefits, unions, etc

If I had the choice, i'd rather pay less taxes and not rely on a pension scheme that might not be there anymore in 30 years!

And what about our colleagues working for Jet Airways?

...

I don't want to work for Ryanair, but I understand why some people do.
Furthermore, if the employees at ryanair get the same benefits as we do, we're all better off flying for ryanair. No risk of bankrupcy at least!

[airazurxtror]

If some of your neighbours who live in houses twice as big as yours and make far more money than you, are known to be paying zero municipal taxes

My neighbours earn much more than me and don't pay any tax : they work at the European Union.
By the way, is the new rule applicable to EU employees ? I mean, paying the taxes of the country they work in, i.e. Belgium ?
I bet that that rule won't apply to them !

[Inquirer]

If everybody's got to pay belgian taxes, then they should at least get the same benefits, unions, etc

Which they will once they start paying taxes here, I am sure.
That's how the system has been working for ages for pretty much everybody else, except Ryan Air crews, it seems.

If I had the choice, i'd rather pay less taxes and not rely on a pension scheme that might not be there anymore in 30 years!

Me too, but sadly that's not how it works: otherwise almost everybody who's a net contributor to our social security would be gone within minutes and only the net receivers would remain and the system would simply collapse.

Having more net contributors is definitely something you and I (as net contributors and hopeful receivers one day) should like to see as it will share the burden over more sholders, whereas the net receivers will obviously like it too for the simple reason it is more security for them.

The only ones loosing out are those forced to join now, but as I said: they are not being asked anything more than what you and I have been doing for ages already, so no need to pitty them really.

[Inquirer]

If some of your neighbours who live in houses twice as big as yours and make far more money than you, are known to be paying zero municipal taxes

My neighbours earn much more than me and don't pay any tax : they work at the European Union.
By the way, is the new rule applicable to EU employees ? I mean, paying the taxes of the country they work in, i.e. Belgium? I bet that that rule won't apply to them !

I remember that for the past few months you've been telling Brussels airlines and all those who said they had a valid point to just mind their own business and not whine about any fiscal privileges other airlines in Belgium may enjoy, yet the very moment you're made to loose those privileges, you immediately start complaining about others who may have safeguarded any fiscal privileges themselves?

A bit ironic, don't you think?

[airazurxtror]

I don't comply about those who have fiscal privileges; but I find rather funny that the EU officials are so intent on suppressing the fiscal privileges of some people (in this case the FR pilots) whilst at the same time continuing to shamelessly enjoy their own.

[Flanker]

Having more net contributors is definitely something you and I (as net contributors and hopeful receivers one day) should like to see as it will share the burden over more sholders, whereas the net receivers will obviously like it too for the simple reason it is more security for them.

The only ones loosing out are those forced to join now, but as I said: they are not being asked anything more than what you and I have been doing for ages already, so no need to pitty them really.

It doesn't change a thing because that only means government has more money to waste in useless projects. You won't pay less taxes just because more people pay it with you.

This is not solidarity, it's stupidity.
You're encouraging the government to screw more people who are also by the way consumers in Belgium. Isn't that what the whole point is? To have more purchase power so that the economy can keep going?


I look at a different picture.
1 year from now, no SN, and ex-SN pilots flying for FR for less salary than at SN.
They are self-employed, so they will have to take the whole burden of the extra taxes.
For Ryanair, nothing will change, because many if not the majority of pilots are contractors. If SN goes belly-up, they will have a whole new supply of pilots who will accept whatever conditions they offer.

Talk of a genius plan!

It's too late to ask for a level playing field now.
This is a free market and a problem between different fiscal policies of the politicians. Companies have to live by the rules, not try to change them. Nobody prevents SN from moving to Ireland if that's what's best for their business. The government shouldn't try to change the law to accommodate SN at a moment when it's reaching a point where it's almost easier to start a whole new company.
If they wanted to do that, they should have done it much earlier when it was still a healthy company.

In fact, the government should now focus and see how they can accommodate Ryanair and Easyjet if and when SN goes belly-up. After all, if Ryanair can absorb the job losses in BRU, that would be the best thing for Belgian aviation. Belgium would finally have a stable airline to serve Europe from its capital and it will stimulate the purchase power of Belgian households. It will also put Belgium back on the tourists' map.
Ryanair could then for instance split its operations between BRU and CRL, serving leisure from CRL and traditional traffic from BRU, a bit like the whole Barcelona operation.

[Inquirer]

It doesn't change a thing because that only means government has more money to waste in useless projects. You won't pay less taxes just because more people pay it with you.

Right, let's all stop paying our taxes so the government has no more money to waste...
You are aware you wouldn't even be typing any of your comments if it wasn't for taxes in the first place, as you'd be completely analafabetic. (pun intended)

Besides, you are wrong: you will pay less taxes, not now, but in the end.
Have a look at how great it is to be able to avoid paying taxes (Greece) and what a shame it is to be living under a very strict fiscal regime (Germany).

The government shouldn't try to change the law to accommodate SN

They aren't. This is an EU law, which has been in the pipe line for years already.
No need to blame it on Brussels Airlines: not everything from the rain that flooded your basement till the traffic jam on the way home if their fault either, you know?

In fact, the government should now focus and see how they can accommodate Ryanair and Easyjet if and when SN goes belly-up. After all, if Ryanair can absorb the job losses in BRU, that would be the best thing for Belgian aviation. Belgium would finally have a stable airline to serve Europe from its capital and it will stimulate the purchase power of Belgian households. It will also put Belgium back on the tourists' map.

If Budapest is anything to go by, the above statement is utter bollocks.
Most of the traffic at Budapest simply shifted to Vienna and Prague and Hungary even lost its direct overseas links with the 2 biggest economies of the world after both American Airlines as well as Hainan Airlines halted flights to New York and Beijing resp.: that's a big AUWTCH, regardless how you look at it!
As you know I regularly have to be in Eastern Europe for work and I happen to use OS much more often than I did before and for a reason: BUD is now a ghost airport and Ryan Air is definitely NOT filling the market Malev has left open, which is perfectly normal too because that's not their aim either.

[Flanker]

Flanker wrote:
In fact, the government should now focus and see how they can accommodate Ryanair and Easyjet if and when SN goes belly-up. After all, if Ryanair can absorb the job losses in BRU, that would be the best thing for Belgian aviation. Belgium would finally have a stable airline to serve Europe from its capital and it will stimulate the purchase power of Belgian households. It will also put Belgium back on the tourists' map.


If Budapest is anything to go by, the above statement is utter bollocks: most of the traffic simply moved out to Vienna and Prague. I notice this myself, because as you know I regularly have to be in Eastern Europe for work and I happen to use OS much more often than I did before. BUD is a ghost airport, and Ryan Air is definitely NOT filling the market, which is perfectly normal, because that's not their aim either.

If Budapest should be taken as an example, it is exactly what I'm saying! The Belgian government should cooperate with Ryanair instead of preventing their expansion in a scenario wherein SN would go bust.
Ryanair wants to expand but the Hungarian government is preventing that.

That's why Ryanair can't offer more destinations and frequencies out of BUD yet and many pax are forced to go through other hubs.

Learn to interpret what others are writing before jumping to the keyboard.\

Flanker wrote:
It doesn't change a thing because that only means government has more money to waste in useless projects. You won't pay less taxes just because more people pay it with you.


Right, let's all stop paying our taxes so the government has no more money to waste...

You are aware you woudn't even be typing any of your comments if it wasn't for taxes in the first place, as you'd be completely analafabetic.

besides, you are wrong: you will pay less taxes, not now, but in the end.
Have a look at how great it is to be able to avoid paying taxes (Greece) and what a shame it is to be living under a very strict fiscal regime (Germany).

Greece's problem is not its fiscal policies, it's their spending.
Greeks have always paid a fair amount of taxes, but they printed money to cover their spendings.

Same for Italy, Spain, Portugal. Ireland is doing fine, it's just that its two largest banks are short on capital and needed a big bail-out.

Flanker wrote:
The government shouldn't try to change the law to accommodate SN


They aren't. This is an EU law, which has been in the pipe line for years already.
No need to blame it on Brussels Airlines: not everything from the rain that flooded your basement till the traffic jam on the way home if their fault either, you know?

Well what a coincidence that this is fast-tracking just now.


Who are you trying to fool?
Just pretend to be a regular pax, you have SN top management written all over you.

[airazurxtror]

Level playing field ..
According to "Le Soir" today page 24 :
For a gross salary of 100.000 euros, a pilot will cost his employer
- 138.375 euros in Belgium, 111.509 in Luxembourg, 110.750 in Ireland, 110.626 in the UK
and the pilot will have in his/her pocket
- 46.295 euros in Belgium, 72.153 euros in Luxemburg, 69.603 in Ireland, 68.128 in UK.
No difference to speak of between Luxemburg, Ireland and UK.
They don't pay much taxes in Luxemburg, and it does not seem to be such a social nightmare over there ...

[Inquirer]

If Budapest should be taken as an example, it is exactly what I'm saying! The Belgian government should cooperate with Ryanair instead of preventing their expansion in a scenario wherein SN would go bust.
Ryanair wants to expand but the Hungarian government is preventing that.

And just how many weekly flights to the 2 biggest economies in the world were they going to offer then?

Learn to interpret what others are writing before jumping to the keyboard.

Are you yelling at me now?
How many times have you been warned by the moderators not to be abusive towards other members on this forum?

Well what a coincidence that this is fast-tracking just now.

With a ten year transition period included, I wouldn't call that fast tracking?

Who are you trying to fool?
Just pretend to be a regular pax, you have SN top management written all over you.

I have repeatedly told you what I do for a living and it is definitely not working for Brussels Airlines; I just happen to be using them (as well as other airlines) on an almost daily basis and I have a long grown passion for aviation, hence my presence on this site: I don't suppose I am the only one around here in that situation, am I?

Just because people don't just buy all your smarttalk without any questioning and point out clear flaws in the reasoning behind it, doesn't automatically mean they are working for what you clearly see as 'the evil enemy". No need to be so paranoid, seriously!

Besides, may I kindly point out you still need to tell us what you do for a living, despite having been asked already 5 times now? Rather than always tell others what they should do and accuse them of working for this or that company if they question your often weird advices, why don't you finally just tell us what YOU do for a living and who YOU work for: it would help people understand your point because they'd know your background. For somebody who's always complaining he's not being understood properly (see above), you aren't being very helpfull for us either.

[cnc]

In fact, the government should now focus and see how they can accommodate Ryanair and Easyjet if and when SN goes belly-up. After all, if Ryanair can absorb the job losses in BRU, that would be the best thing for Belgian aviation. Belgium would finally have a stable airline to serve Europe from its capital and it will stimulate the purchase power of Belgian households. It will also put Belgium back on the tourists' map.
Ryanair could then for instance split its operations between BRU and CRL, serving leisure from CRL and traditional traffic from BRU, a bit like the whole Barcelona operation.

cool we will have more lowcost intra europe flights but hardly any longhaul! this is the way to go
seems like you only care about the "going on vacation to spain" pax
we would not only lose a lot of pax to airports in other countries but we would also lose a lot of business.

[Flanker]

cool we will have more lowcost intra europe flights but hardly any longhaul! this is the way to go
seems like you only care about the "going on vacation to spain" pax
we would not only lose a lot of pax to airports in other countries but we would also lose a lot of business.

The U.S connections will still remain.
But if hypothetically and as I believe it to be the case, if LH has plans to move Africa to one of their own hubs, there won't be much longhaul left over anyway.

Then one more thing one has to ask oneself is whether a country with a population comparable to Pennsylvania can sustain its own long-haul network. It hasn't worked in the past 50 years, why would it start working now?
I don't say that it wouldn't work if you find a smart way to make it work, but still, I think that the times of every small European country having 10 airlines and their own long-haul offering is past us. Consolidation in the past few years and the next years will show that only a few longhaul hubs will survive in Europe.

That's why I think that Belgium has the opportunity to pioneer in the low-cost shorthaul segment and become a hub for intra-EU travel. Ryanair don't offer connections now, but if Belgium serves them BRU on a silver plate with some incentives, it's certainly not something that MOL wouldn't think about.
After all, Ryanair could work with a system where connections are only allowed at one single hub, connecting every piece of their network, with every other piece of network. CRL already offers a majority of all Ryanair destinations.

Plus, he could finally realise his dream of longhaul low-cost, if it's more than just attention-gathering.

[convair]

Flanker,

The comparison between Belgium and Pennsylvania is plain stupid! Do you compare Switzerland and Belgium simply because they roughly have the same population? I don't. I would like to think you don't either and that you know there are other factors involved!
Looks like you hate SN (for which I don't work and never did!) so much that anything goes...

[Inquirer]

Hate to point it out because somebody is probably going to yell at me again but actually Pennsylvania does have its hub airport and home carrier flying long haul routes as well: US Airways at Philadelphia. They even serve BRU.

[Flanker]

You want to compare BRU with Philly?
Yeah right I'm comparing Belgium with Pennsylvania? Ever heard of sarcasm?

Get a brain.

[Conti764]

cool we will have more lowcost intra europe flights but hardly any longhaul! this is the way to go
seems like you only care about the "going on vacation to spain" pax
we would not only lose a lot of pax to airports in other countries but we would also lose a lot of business.

You have it wrong... FR will fly long haul with their B738's... And they'll contract DHL to send the lugage after.

No need to thank me for clarifying your post, NCB.

[Flanker]

Looks like you hate SN (for which I don't work and never did!) so much that anything goes...

It's just that I've been saying that this would happen for years and years and now I'm enjoying my "I told you so" moments. All the nay-sayers are proven wrong once again, and they will be many more times.
Call me arrogant if you wish but my door is always open to discuss aviation seriously, when you're done with your cheap shots. I almost feel like I'm running the campaign for the democrats

I'd much rather enjoy an intellectual conversation, than playing in the sandbox. You chose, I can be a 8 year old too. All this quoting and responding is rather exhausting and pointless for the discussion. I'd much rather give you my assessment of the current situation but hey, I'm like Santa, you are a bad boy, I throw coal in your face.

[Flanker]

Conti764, that sounds more promising than flying an A319 with 1 pax to ATH and empty on the way back.
Why do we need Abelag when we have private jet services by Brussels Airlines?

[Conti764]

You want to compare BRU with Philly?
Yeah right I'm comparing Belgium with Pennsylvania? Ever heard of sarcasm?

Get a brain.

With your track record on this forum, it is hard for the average person to know if you are being serious, sarcastic or just plain stupid.

The population of your country doesn't mean jack in aviation. Ever heard of transit pax? Sure, the Netherlands have a bigger economy, and their overseas territories, but that doesn't equal the differences in size in fleet, network and pax of KL in comparison with SN...

Switzerland has a far smaller population then Belgium, but Swiss is a succesful airline. Again, the better economy but then again, SN caters for their prime market: Africa whereas LX flies a much broader network.

SN is only just being turned around with a better product and more services, give them time. But ever since SN decided not to follow the big plans of NCB the Aviation Specialist, a Godgiven talent, you seem to have lost every common sense when it comes to the airline. They replace their fleet with newer and bigger equipment: bad decision. They update their ageing long haul product: bad decision and you even manage to just lie in that particular topic. They add a promising destination, NYC, bad decision.

No, they just had to have bought a bunch of narrowbodies to fly deep into Africa, buy two odd planes to fly to NYC and Africa and just should have bought an entire fleet of Q-800's, just because NCB told them so.

How can you add someone to that foe list?

[Conti764]

Looks like you hate SN (for which I don't work and never did!) so much that anything goes...

It's just that I've been saying that this would happen for years and years and now I'm enjoying my "I told you so" moments. All the nay-sayers are proven wrong once again, and they will be many more times.
Call me arrogant if you wish but my door is always open to discuss aviation seriously, when you're done with your cheap shots. I almost feel like I'm running the campaign for the democrats

I'd much rather enjoy an intellectual conversation, than playing in the sandbox. You chose, I can be a 8 year old too. All this quoting and responding is rather exhausting and pointless for the discussion. I'd much rather give you my assessment of the current situation but hey, I'm like Santa, you are a bad boy, I throw coal in your face.

Why do you keep posting on this forum if all of us are so far below your standards? You already left this forum when nobody cared about what you say anymore, only to come back with a new name and the same rubbish.

Why do you think anybody cares about your assessments or whatever you post on this forum?

If replying and quoting is so exhausting as you claim it to be, do yourself and us a favour, turn your login in and leave this forum. Forever this time. Nobody will miss you, nobody will care...