Brussels Airlines future and financial perspective

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FLYAIR10
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Joined: 08 Sep 2008, 22:05

Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by FLYAIR10 »

I was recently on flights to FCO and they were almost fully booked which I found strange (but it was said by SN that the best performing routes are among others LIS, FCO, MAD, BCN).
Also my experience. Thusfar this year I flew SN to AGP(A319) and BUD(RJ100). LF on 4 flights must have been above 95 %. The return BUD flight (RJ100) was fully booked.

Also, I seem to have read that SN Cargo is also on the rise. Is there maybe some sort of A319/A320 cargo effect aswell? the Airbus jets have significantly more possibilities to bring in Cargo revenue as compared to the RJ's..

Grtz

Lysexpat
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Lysexpat »

The August figures are indeed excellent!
With these figures and the state aid there is no longer an excuse to loose money though. It will be impossible to grow at this rate in the years to come and the employees are already amongst the worst paid in European aviation. Furthermore we have only seen the beginning of the price war, I predict 9,99€ fares out of BRU for winter 2015.
If SN is still in the red in 2014, there can only be one conclusion: the project is not viable.

airazurxtror
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by airazurxtror »

Lysexpat wrote: I predict 9,99€ fares out of BRU for winter 2015
Magari ! (as say the Italians, meaning : if only it could be ! let's hope so !)
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Flanker2 »

If SN is still in the red in 2014, there can only be one conclusion: the project is not viable.
I think that we can already conclude that the project is not viable, based already on the results of the past 4 years.

They need to change the project significantly to make it work.
By that, I don't mean going head-to-head against FR.
Until 5-6 years ago it would have made sense to go head-to-head against them and I was encouraging it. FR only had 7 aircraft based in CRL and were still manageable, SN could have made their life much harder and contained them.

But that wasn't what they did and they are doing it now, when they are the ones to become contained.

At this point they can no longer contain FR or even the smaller VY, so they should focus on expanding the part of the network that is not affected by FR. But what are they doing?

If SN could have booked +20% of pax last year by reducing their fares slightly or increasing their capacity, they would have. Otherwise we can say that they were incompetent last year. But that's not what's happening.
They are now working in a totally different yield environment, forced by the LCC's but also their legacy competitors on the other routes.

They have to do +20% at those yields, or else that's a hole with no bottom.

LJ
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by LJ »

DannyVDB wrote:I also think that indeed the transfer policy of the LH-group (because that is not something SN is deciding on its own) is working well over the past months. LH said before they want to use BRU to re-direct certain pax more logically: e.g. someone from Gotheborg wants to go to Porto - better via BRU than via FRA or MUC. I am curious to know how many of the pax on SN flights are coming from the booking mechanisms of LH, OS, LX ...
I think that this change in transfer policy says a lot about the yield of these passengers. If LH don't want these passengers on their own aircraft, one can be sure the yield isn't high enough for LH. Good for LH (as they can sell these tickets to long hauls passengers (generating more revenue and yield), however is it good for SN?

Anyway, it's good to see that SN is finally getting a load factor which is close to those of its main peers.

DannyVDB
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by DannyVDB »

I don't think that it is related to the fact that they (LH, ...) do not want them on their own planes, but rather to a more logic routing ... At least that is what they explained a few years ago and it makes sense to me. You need also to look at the map. There are many such city pairs where it doesn't make sense to transfer pax through FRA, let alone MUC ...

Just my two cents

convair
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by convair »

I fully agree with Dany and Inquirer.
Regarding potential overcapacity during winter, one should also keep in mind that several planes will have to undergo C-check during that period, making overcapacity lower than we think. An example of this: when SN announces additional fights to Africa, they refer to winter 2013, not to summer 2014; it means the number of intercontinental flights this winter will probably be lower than in summer 2014, consistent with the fact that some 330s will have to spend a few weeks in Malta for maintenance.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Inquirer »

FWIW-
Lufthansa is closing their minihub in Dusseldorf as they move over all their European flights to Germanwings: is BRU taking over part of it's connecting role now, maybe?
I noticed in the topic about BRU's summer figures STAR alliance transfer passengers have grown by almost 22% vs last year, so it seems likely if you see such growth figures being posted.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=54454
If so, BRU may start to reconsider that extension of their terminal then, because I have noticed that even now, they start to lack gates: we had to wait for almost 10 minutes on the plane last week, before our gate became available!
Anyway, it's good to see aviation booming in Belgium again, even if it was due to a crappy summer: maybe the lesson from this is aviation enthusiasts must hope for really bad summers in future! :D

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Flanker2 »

Regarding potential overcapacity during winter, one should also keep in mind that several planes will have to undergo C-check during that period, making overcapacity lower than we think.
Though that sounds right, if you think deeper it's not.
Several planes had to undergo C-checks the other years as well during the winter. So the new additional capacity comes on top of that anyway, worse even in the future they will have to send those additional aircraft to heavy maintenance as well.
Depending on what needs to be done, an A320 C-check costs from one to several million dollars every 18 months. That's the C-check alone, it doesn't count light maintenance.

Also, the "bigger aircraft" for more capacity reasoning doesn't work anymore as most RJ85's were already phased out/stored or in phase-out maintenance by early last year.

If SN can hold up that long, I hope that they revisit the Africa narrowbody concept using the NEO's.

I can't comment on more transfer pax without seeing concreet figures.
How many is that on a daily basis?
Also, one has to think whether these are significant enough to be considered, including the yields.
The Intra-Europe market is well-covered by point-to-point, so it's either people flying on cheap corporate contracts that force them to transfer through Star/LH hubs, leisure people who would go out of their way to fly cheap (but no FR/U2 option), or people flying from/to a handful of regional airports in the U.K. and Italy that SN is covering well, from which there are no direct flights.
I already said that SN could expand into the shorthaul transfer market by increasing the regional destinations, but so far there is no evidence that SN has seen that hole in the market.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by RoMax »

Lysexpat wrote: If SN is still in the red in 2014, there can only be one conclusion: the project is not viable.
Don't you think that's way too early to tell? Substantial changes to the European product offer have been changed and will be introduced after 20 september (with bookings already running since August), it will take to summer 2015 to see if that change indeed works.

The CFO of Lufthansa said earlier this year that 2014 will be an important year to see if SN can cope with the increased LCC competition, investing in product changes, adding that they don't expect SN to be profitable again in 2014, that corner has to be turned in 2015.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Inquirer »

Lysexpat,

Don't be mistaken: a financial result alone is worthless information to predict the future with in itself; what you need to know is shareholders resolve as well as their true interests in the company and then combine it with the results to see if that company lives up to THEIR expectations.
What WE expect from it, or what we think they should expect from it, is really of no importance at all.

Depending on the nature of shareholders, such expectations can be purely profit driven like at some companies (e.g Easyjet), or purely non-profit driven (say some Arab airlines for instance), or anything in between really.

In the case of Brussels Airlines, I'd be inclined to say the last is the case, given the way it was set up and it has been going for the past 14 years now, so as such they are safe according to me for as long as they don't redo a huge double digit or triple digit loss. Whether they'd book say a 15 million euro loss, or a 15 million euro profit this year, is however not going to make any material difference. If it would, they'd been long gone from the skies when things looked much worse than today and they wouldn't have been able to clean up their balance sheet last year. That fact alone is the main give away that they have a pretty solid backing in fact, regardless what the balance sheet figures themselves may (or may not) show.

Boeing767copilot
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Boeing767copilot »

Brussels Airlines reports 2.1% growth in 2013; Geneva is still top route

http://www.anna.aero/2014/09/17/brussel ... 6-86627518

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by RoMax »

Boeing767copilot wrote:Brussels Airlines reports 2.1% growth in 2013; Geneva is still top route

http://www.anna.aero/2014/09/17/brussel ... 6-86627518
The 2.1% for 2013 was not new (that operational data has been published in January), though still interesting to see the specific total weekly seats (for September 2014) for the top 12 destinations and country markets.

Also the graph of past years with total pax and loadfactors, including the 2014 forecast (based on data so far) pointing at almost 6.5 million passengers looks good, at least from an operational point of view. Both loadfactor and pax numbers have never been higher for a Belgian airline since the bankruptcy of Sabena in 2001.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by sn26567 »

How can you trust anna.aero when they write: "Two years later, Lufthansa bought 45% of the carrier and took over the remainder in 2011" and further in the article "the wholly owned subsidiary of Lufthansa Group" ?

And further, in the same sentence: "Paris CDG is conspicuous by its absence; ... while CDG is served twice-daily by the carrier’s A320s.". Does SN fly to CDG or not?

And the reason why SN does not fly to FRA is that its codeshares with the 8 or 9 daily LH flights, not because the distance is only 300 km.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by RoMax »

True, that's also why I didn't share this article on this forum when I saw it earlier today. But while there are mistakes in the text, their graphs are quite trustworthy. Most of the times their data is based on companies such as Innovata, which is part of Flightglobal and leading in providing travel data such as airline schedules. In this case there is also a graph based on AEA. OAG is also an example of a frequently used source.

While you wouldn't say it looking at their website, anna.aero usually is a very trustworthy source, but this article holds some mistakes indeed.
sn26567 wrote: And further, in the same sentence: "Paris CDG is conspicuous by its absence; ... while CDG is served twice-daily by the carrier’s A320s.". Does SN fly to CDG or not?
In the case of CDG they mean it's consipicuous for not being in the top-12, which is 'normal' for many other traditional European airlines.

I mostly look at the actual data in their articles, as they reproduce data published by companies such as Innovata, data which you can often not access unless you have a very expensive subscription or membership access, in clear graphs. Though also that data has to be looked at in the context, they often use seat capacity per week, especially in markets highly influenced by seasonal differences, this can give a wrong idea of the capacity year-round.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by tolipanebas »

While others cry for attention by constantly hosting non-telling press conferences at hotels, Brussels Airlines makes headlines with its operational performance improvements.

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/economie/1.2098356

summary:
so far, half a million more passengers carried YTD
other operational figures mentioned too, as already reported in this and other topics about the LF etc.

Stij
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Stij »

Hi Tolipanebas,
I read the article as well. Great news!!! I hope only one thing will be true: profit in 2015... otherwise all the rest is in vain.

Cheers,

Stij

Pocahontas
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Pocahontas »

So are YOU a big boy Sean1982? Seen your behavior on this forum I doubt it. You and your MOL asskissing is really getting boring. In this topic title nothing is mentioned about Mol Airlines... so I really don't see your point here, ONCE AGAIN!
How many Belgian employees are based in EBCI and EBBR?

flightlover
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by flightlover »

sean1982 wrote:
tolipanebas wrote:While others cry for attention by constantly hosting non-telling press conferences at hotels, Brussels Airlines makes headlines with its operational performance improvements.

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/economie/1.2098356

summary:
so far, half a million more passengers carried YTD
other operational figures mentioned too, as already reported in this and other topics about the LF etc.
622.845 pax with a 81.3% loadfactor in Aug and maybe a profit in 2015
vs.
9,415,074 pax with a 94% loadfactor in Aug and 500 million EUR profit

Come back when you're ready to play with the big boys ;)
Please sean, let it go, Ryanair didn't achieve that figure in a day.
Sn is turning towards growth and doing a fine job I must ad. If now they can change the financial side from red to black they can have a bright future.

And just to taunt you a bit: How does it work out if you look at the number of planes and the net revenue generated per plane. Because in the end the overhead is not rising that much when an extra plane comes in. So as an extra plane comes in, the overhead/aircraft is decreasing actually. And also don't forget the increasing maintenance costs for older planes. Have fun calculating that, I'll wait for your results :)

sean1982
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by sean1982 »

That's why 50 of the 150 new aircraft that come in will be used to replace the older B738's. Further down the line the 737MAX's will be replacing more NG's to keep the maintenance costs down. A whole different strategy than extending leases on old avro's and expanding a fleet with old aircraft that come with additional maintenance costs from the start.

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