SNBA to change A333 for 767 or 777?

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 21 Apr 2004, 17:19

Just heard from someone who had read this in an aviation magazine:

With the end of the lease from Birdy's A333, SNBA was gonna take-over the three A333. At least thats what i heard. This article discribes that SNBA might choose 767-400 or 777 in stead of taking over the A333 from birdy.

Anyone who can confirm or deny this?

Post by **Apuneger** » 21 Apr 2004, 17:33

Although I'd like to see a Belgian-registered 777 one day, I don't think SN BA will get this aircraft into its fleet. All of its pilots, except for the BAe/Avro pilots, are familiarized with the Airbus style cockpit, so I'd be surprized to see SN BA get one or more Boeing long haul aircraft.

But, basically, it all comes down to analyzing, in a thorough way, cost and benefit forecasts as well as operational items (such as pilot familiarization). And, if the bottom line conclusion should state that e.g. a Boeing 777 is better for the company than an A330, then yes, why not?

Ivan

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 21 Apr 2004, 17:37

i would find it sad, imagine we wouldnt see the A333 anymore at BRU.

But if they do change, i hope it will be a 777 and nota 767!

Post by **sn26567** » 21 Apr 2004, 17:43

I have indeed heard the same story (probably on this website!). This will not happen at once. In October, SN BA will probably take over the A333s and than look for a suitable replcament, if needed.

The 777 however looks rather big for SN's needs...

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 21 Apr 2004, 17:45

is a 777 bigger then A333?

And why would they first buy the A333's and then buy again to replace the A333?

Post by **sn26567** » 21 Apr 2004, 17:56

Yes, a 777 is way bigger than a 330.

And who talks of buying? These planes are leased!

pilatus · Post by **pilatus** » 21 Apr 2004, 18:12

I have the same thoughts as Apuneger, all their pilots, maintenance and ground equipment is Airbus rated and then changing to Bouing? Would the same mistake as SABENA did in the past if you ask me.

Greetz,

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 21 Apr 2004, 18:28

sn26567 wrote: And who talks of buying? These planes are leased!

wel they were gonna buy the A333 from birdy i thought when the lease ended??

AN124 · Post by **AN124** » 21 Apr 2004, 18:41

I think SN indeed doesn't make the switch to Boeing.
It will cost to much to reschool the pilots for the Boeings then extending the lease with Birdy or looking for ohter (better) A330's.

Best Regards,
Yvo

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 21 Apr 2004, 19:05

lets hope so .... 8)

Airborne · Post by **Airborne** » 21 Apr 2004, 19:21

The A333 and the B777 are both nice planes. I hope SNBA won't choose the B767 because this type is not so unique at BRU (spotters opinion).

sn26567 wrote:I have indeed heard the same story (probably on this website!).

Indeed, you can read a part of the article in the topic SNBA fleet.

Greetzzz,
Kristof

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 21 Apr 2004, 19:40

First of all, this is an old story

see my post a couple of days ago in the following thread: https://www.aviation24.be/posts3312-40.html

Thanks for allready posting the link Airborne

Secondly as my post clearly states (I think it's on the second page: the quote from Air International magazine) the B767 is the least plausible!!
I think this is due to the fact that the B767-400 takes less cargo compared to the A333 or the B777.

It will cost to much to reschool the pilots for the Boeings then extending the lease with Birdy or looking for ohter (better) A330's.

This is not the only factor that will influence the decison !!! Remember there are only three planes so not that much crews.
Don't forget that Boeing lost a big market share here in Belgium when Sabena decided to go for Airbus. I'm sure Boeing will do everything to regain the market.

I have the same thoughts as Apuneger, all their pilots, maintenance and ground equipment is Airbus rated and then changing to Bouing? Would the same mistake as SABENA did in the past if you ask me.

I don't totally agree with you.

The maintenance of the A333 is done by SN Technics and not by SNBA. This means that there are no further costs for SNBA on that level, they just pay for the maintenance. As for the pilots well I allready explained what I thought. Can you tell us what kind of ground equipment would have to be changed, I can't really see what you mean

And I don't see why this would be another SABENA if SNBA would choose 3 B777's instead of 3 A333's

What I would like to know is the amount of Cargo which the A333 and the B777 can take.
I know that the B777's are bigger (in term of pax capacity) compared to the A333, but I wouldn't say that they are too big. I'm sure that the marketshare of SNBA will increase in the future and today they allready have very good Loadfactors on those flights.

Anyway, I'm not against the A333 at all, I really like this plane a lot, but if they go for the B777 I wouldn't regret it

Regards
Chris
8)

Post by **sn26567** » 22 Apr 2004, 09:12

Avro wrote:Don't forget that Boeing lost a big market share here in Belgium when Sabena decided to go for Airbus. I'm sure Boeing will do everything to regain the market.

Do you really think that Boeing is interested in the small Belgian market and in selling just three planes to SN BA?

Furthermore, given SN BA's small capitalisation, they will not even be able to buy the planes; they will most probably lease them, which means that the planes already exist at ILFC, GECAS, Boullioun or one of the oter big leasing companies.

Flybe · Post by **Flybe** » 22 Apr 2004, 12:50

Do you really think that Boeing is interested in the small Belgian market and in selling just three planes to SN BA?

Every plane counts!! He who forgets about the small, ends up losing the big... But it could be very well exactly what Boeing is doing now...

Anyway, i do agree partially with you on the statement that SNBA probably won't buy NEW planes. Although they seem very interested in acquiring Birdy and like that owning the 3 A333's. But maybe if they can find a few cheap 'older' 777's to buy or lease... who knows.

Greets,

Pieter

Jense · Post by **Jense** » 22 Apr 2004, 13:08

Avro wrote:Anyway, I'm not against the A333 at all, I really like this plane a lot, but if they go for the B777 I wouldn't regret it

I totally agree with you, Chris

And that about the 777's, ... I think it's just dreaming...

I also like the A333, but 777's are really my favourites... The plane is so big, huge, it's just everything:!:

My conclusion; SN BA will not get 777's...

greettzzzz

Post by **speedbird1** » 22 Apr 2004, 14:48

I too prefer the 777 to the 330 just! The 330 looks more graceful somehow, but the 777 has got the cooler looking engines and now the 777-300 is around they just look great, and also with Emirates having them! Unlike SN! Unfortunatly.

bravo767 · Post by **bravo767** » 22 Apr 2004, 15:08

Hi,

Yes, nobody knows what could happen in the future but today's option is the take over of Birdy A330 operations by SNBA. A333 comes cheap, has a good cargo capacity and suits well the African routes.

SNBA is already operating A319's and there lies the big advantage of MFF (mixed fleet flying). With 3 aircrafts of each type it leeds to nice economies in terms of numbers of crews, trainings, versatility....
The gain is 4 crews versus an idependent operation.

Moreover, the actual date for the take over is October 31st, it seems a little bit short to decide now for another aircraft. (unless one's decides to prolonge the contract with Birdy). Another factor pleading for A330 is the fact that SNBA could obtain easily the transfer ETOPS and CAT IIIB without having to start from scratch.
(ETOPS = the authorization for a twin engine aircraft to fly at more than 60 min from a suitable airport. Actually Birdy has 120 min)
(CAT IIIB = where authorized and on suitable airports, landing with a visibility of minimum 75 meters).

Happy landings

sab319 · Post by **sab319** » 22 Apr 2004, 16:41

W'll see what happens. But I hope they choose Airbus!

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 22 Apr 2004, 18:10

sn26567 wrote:Do you really think that Boeing is interested in the small Belgian market and in selling just three planes to SN BA?

As flybe allready said, every planes counts a lot today.!!!

sn26567 wrote: Furthermore, given SN BA's small capitalisation, they will not even be able to buy the planes; they will most probably lease them, which means that the planes already exist at ILFC, GECAS, Boullioun or one of the oter big leasing companies

I never said that SNBA would buy the planes, they will for sure lease them. But even if they lease the planes Boeing will be happy, since they will have to support SN Technics with parts that'll have to be replaced during maintenance.

SNBA is already operating A319's and there lies the big advantage of MFF (mixed fleet flying). With 3 aircrafts of each type it leeds to nice economies in terms of numbers of crews, trainings, versatility....

The MFF is certainly a great thing, but couldn't they do if they have the B777

I mean for the moment (If I remember correctly) there are some FA's that fly on the A333's and on the ARJ's and those planes are certainly not the same !!!

Another factor pleading for A330 is the fact that SNBA could obtain easily the transfer ETOPS and CAT IIIB without having to start from scratch.

Does it really take that long to obtain ETOPS and CATIIIB

And is ETOPS really necessary for SNBA, I mean as far as I know they never use it to fly to Africa

BTW I just wanted to mention that B777's can also be aquired (leased) for a very good prize. UAL has stored some of them in the Desert since a couple of month !!!

Greetz
Chris
8)

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 22 Apr 2004, 18:33

Avro wrote:BTW I just wanted to mention that B777's can also be aquired (leased) for a very good prize. UAL has stored some of them in the Desert since a couple of month !!!

I just found a picture which shows four of UA's B777's that are stored.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/554164/M/. Pretty sad view if you ask me

Not because of the B777's, but because all those beauties that aren't flying anymore

A333 comes cheap, has a good cargo capacity and suits well the African routes.

It has indeed a good cargo capacity, but as I checked on A.net (I suppose that the facts are reliable) I saw that both planes have the same cargo capacity. 8O Both the A333 and the B772 can take up to 32 LD3 containers. Further more the A333 can take 11 pallets instead of LD3 containers, but nothing is said about the B777. I would like to no wether the B772 is also able to take some pallets in place of containers, and if yes how much ?

Is SNBA using pallets or LD3 containers on the A333 ??

Greetz
Chris
8)