Cargo B moves to LGG

[zteven]

Yet another slap in the face for the cargo department in BRU.
Last month we were already down bij 47% so this is BAD news
for a lot of employees...

Greetz



Steven

[LX-LGX]

It's the flemish party that decided the new rules for BRU, I'm sure they knew something like this would hapenned. On the belga release, the noice/schedule limitations seem to be the reason of the move. No surprise. They are not the first one to move, and I guess not the last one ...
Please remember that Belgium is still Belgium. Moving in the same country is better than going to AMS or FRA...

No, it's not a Flemish party and not a Flemish minister who has decided the new rules for BRU: it was a decision from the federal minister for Transport. The reason for the night curfew he has installed, is the very severe environment restrictions that the Brussels Capital Region has installed for planes taking off from the nearby airport BRU.

What is the majority in the Brussels Capital Region? 13% seats for Flemish political parties, 87% seats for French speaking political parties? Well, it's appealing that these 87% have set out other much severe restrictions for BRU then they have done for the airports in their 100% own region: CRL and LGG.

And don't tell me that "it's a different neighboor" or that there are less occupants live nearby the airport. Fact is that also around CRL and also around LGG, neighboors could wake up from a full 747-400 cargo, taking off.

The French speaking political parties know that most of the jobs at BRU come from the Flemish region. So the more aviation companies leave BRU for LGG, the more employment French speaking parties get in their own region.

Indeed: Belgium is Belgium: a country with 2 attitudes. One is "let us respect the other", the other one is "let us take from the other what we can".

[Acid-drop]

There is a huge stress around that, for sure.
Let me tell you what I see from my PoV, in the other side of the country : the federal minister for Transport is flemish, and the previous one also, and the one before. Brussels region has an influence, you are right. Negative, you are right. But Brussels grand place is 4000m away from the tracks. I can understand them. People who live in Zaventem village complain as well ... The airport is INSIDE the city, how to not have problems then ... Noice/schedule restriction are the logical path of any airport like that.

Noice in CRL and LGG are less of a problem. And when there is a problem, there is sound proofing. The gov bought houses, the gov forbit new construction around the airport. Everything has been planned since the begining, with much much precaution. None of that has been done around BRU. Don't be surprised ... blame those who think an airport is only problems ... including many ministers and mayors ...

I don't know why you always see communautaire problems here ... LGG is just a lot more flexible, cheaper, made for cargo. It's not a surprise to it growing fast. Imagine if wallonia was making a huge stress everytime the flemish harbours had a success, crazy.

[JAF737]

Indeed: Belgium is Belgium: a country with 2 attitudes. One is "let us respect the other", the other one is "let us take from the other what we can".

You should limit yourself sometimes.

What did LGG take? Did LGG take anything? Or has Carbo B been smart enough to move there by itself?
Isn't it a LOGICAL decision from the airline? With so many restrictions at BRU, just get off and go to a real cargo airport, where the airline is of course welcome. What did you expect LGG to do? Refusing the airline because of the beautiful eyes of BRU? What do you think OST or BRU would have done in the same situation!

[jan_olieslagers]

The most sad thing about the storry is that Walloon politic party's are doing every thing they can to block further growth of BRU in favor of CRL and LGG. Its all part of the plan to make the Walloon area acceptebale for France after the split of Belgium. Or at least that is how I see it. Or is it all a coincidance what happenes wright now?

Yes, certain political parties are defending the interests of their voters. Who can blame them for that? They were to blame if they did otherwise. What I find really sad is that Flemish parties are doing virtually nothing to defend aviation and the jobs it creates.
As for France annexing Wallonia: if ever they want it (which I doubt) it will certainly not be for its airports. Northern France has enough underused airports for itself (Lille, Metz-Nancy, Calais-Dunkirk, ...) So that part of your message is utter nonsense, indeed.

PS mr. forum manager can we really not have a spelling checker again?

[icymichel]

Yet another slap in the face for the cargo department in BRU.
Last month we were already down bij 47% so this is BAD news
for a lot of employees...

Also for the technicians from Sabena Technics.

[Bralo20]

There is a huge stress around that, for sure.
Let me tell you what I see from my PoV, in the other side of the country : the federal minister for Transport is flemish, and the previous one also, and the one before. Brussels region has an influence, you are right. Negative, you are right. But Brussels grand place is 4000m away from the tracks. I can understand them. People who live in Zaventem village complain as well ... The airport is INSIDE the city, how to not have problems then ... Noice/schedule restriction are the logical path of any airport like that..

You are forgetting something. When the airport was first established it was a rather deserted area. An airport attracts companies and it attracts people who work there. It also attracted people who were looking for not to expensive building sites near the capital so they could be fast to their work, they could be on the highway within minutes etc... They knew before they were building there that they were building a home next to an airport in expansion... And exactly those people are complaining now that there is to much noise...

It's actually discusting that those people are able to force restrictions to an airport that was there before they lived there...

I'm living in Londerzeel, about 25km's from BRU and sometimes I hear the planes also, mostly during the night arround 3 o'clock when there is a cargo plane that is suffering to get airborn (at least so it sounds ). Do I complain about it? Why should I? In my backyard there is a railroad, the Ghent-Mechelen railroad is one of Belgians busiest railroads day and night. A hugh amount of cargo traffic is transported through the railroad. Do I complain that the trains are running through my backyard? No I don't... I knew it before I moved to there. The first nights you hear the trains running, the second night you hear them less and after a week or so you don't hear a single thing anymore because you are used to it...

This has little to do with Flemish or Wallonian, it's all about people getting selfish...

If the people weren't to selfish BRU wouldn't have any problem... But people are getting more selfish each day. Me, myself and I is the only thing that counts those days...

To bad that CargoB are moving out but I doubt they would be the last... Maybe we should build a new (larger) airport in Wallonia and compeed with BRU... I'm sure it would be successfull... And then the people who are living near the BRU airport can sleep a bit... (or maybe not when they lost their jobs due carriers that moved out of BRU).


Just my 2 cents

[Conti764]

It's the flemish party that decided the new rules for BRU, I'm sure they knew something like this would hapenned. On the belga release, the noice/schedule limitations seem to be the reason of the move. No surprise. They are not the first one to move, and I guess not the last one ...
Please remember that Belgium is still Belgium. Moving in the same country is better than going to AMS or FRA...

You're being a little naive here... It's not Belgium anymore, but Flanders against Walloonia and Brussels, especially in economics and not the least aviation. BRU is the victim of the fact that Walloonia seems more aviation minded then Flanders, while BRU is one of the most important economical stimulators of our economy. And, on the other hand, it is easier for Walloonia to attract aviation buissenis since their airports are relatively far away from other regions while BRU gets handicaped by the Brussels region.
But now you see a counter from South-Limburg, they are again opposing the expansion plans of LGG and want a ban on night flights above their soil. You mights say that politics are killing aviation and economy, but this is what the French speaking politicians have asked for.

I know politics are not allowed on this forum, but for once there has to be an exception since this story is politics for a large part.

[Acid-drop]

Living 4000m from the airport, it's a human problem. Making an attack like Riemst when you live 30km from the airport, that's politics.

[Conti764]

Indeed: Belgium is Belgium: a country with 2 attitudes. One is "let us respect the other", the other one is "let us take from the other what we can".

You should limit yourself sometimes.

What did LGG take? Did LGG take anything? Or has Carbo B been smart enough to move there by itself?
Isn't it a LOGICAL decision from the airline? With so many restrictions at BRU, just get off and go to a real cargo airport, where the airline is of course welcome. What did you expect LGG to do? Refusing the airline because of the beautiful eyes of BRU? What do you think OST or BRU would have done in the same situation!

Nobody is blaming LGG, that would be ridicule. But people are right when they suspect French speaking politicians to place their own in front of the other community. They have the right do so, maybe they're even supposed to, but then lets fight fair and don't start whining (cfr. André Antoine who states that the opposition from Riemst is a 'declaration of war') when a top politician of a strictly Flemish nationalist party N-VA does the same (Jan Peumans).

What the Walloons do with LGG concercing cargo, they try with CRL and pax flights, although this 'battle' is less easy to fight then the cargobattle. Flemish attitude has to change. You want to quarrel? Then let's dance... They should start investing in the future of BRU airport and I am not speaking about more mobility around the airport. All planes are useless unless they make sure they can consolidate operations at Brussels Airport.

[jan_olieslagers]

Imagine if wallonia was making a huge stress everytime the flemish harbours had a success, crazy.

They DID make a big fuss every time a Flemish harbour wanted an investment. Remember the almost unused "plan incliné" (a nice landmark on VFR navigation flights, though)? That was compensation for some Flemish port investment, can't remember which. And why is Antwerp port still waiting for its second second railroad, after decades of pleading?

Sorry for going politics, but Conti764 rightly pointed out that this is unavoidable in this particular case. Let's remain polite, though.

[Acid-drop]

latest news :
http://www.rtbf.be/info/regions/liege/c ... set-105920

confirmation : it's still under negociation.
The fact that the flemish gov own 25% of Cargo-B makes the story even stranger. But why not.

[Acid-drop]

Imagine if wallonia was making a huge stress everytime the flemish harbours had a success, crazy.

They DID make a big fuss every time a Flemish harbour wanted an investment. Remember the almost unused "plan incliné" (a nice landmark on VFR navigation flights, though)? That was compensation for some Flemish port investment, can't remember which. And why is Antwerp port still waiting for its second second railroad, after decades of pleading?

Sorry for going politics, but Conti764 rightly pointed out that this is unavoidable in this particular case. Let's remain polite, though.

That's just about not spending the whole money on only one side of the country. It is fair.
There are compensation between Charleroi and Liège too. For airports, and many other stuff. Fair.

[Conti764]

Living 4000m from the airport, it's a human problem. Making an attack like Riemst when you live 30km from the airport, that's politics.

Why edit your post on the ver last moment?

The peole living on flemish soil around the airport have no right whatsoever to complain. They knew where they were going to live and had to take the disadvantages of the airport in mind when they laid the first foundations of there house.

The Brussels capital region never had a problem with noise from the airport back in the eighties and nineties when several airlines were flying from and to BRU with noisy 747 Classics, but then again back in those days Belgium was a unitary country and french spearking Sabena was the main operator of the airport, so nobody complaint about it. And to my opinion it are only inhabitants of Brussels who might have a right to complain since the city was there before the airport and people were probably living there before the airport came. But like I said, that is hypocritical since years ago when flights were far more noisy, nobody heard of them.

Now Belgium has been federalized, BRU is solely on Flemish soil, it is Flanders who profits the most of it, the airport is mainly Dutch speaking (although numerous workers are French speaking) and Sabena doesn't excist anymore. So why accept the disadvantages of an airport we don't take profit from (Brussels and Walloonie regions) while we can maximize profits for our own on CRL (pax) and LGG (cargo)? Why should we mind about those stupid Flemish? That, my friend, is the true way of thinking in Walloon politics.

They have the right, and probably the duty to put their own people before the others, but so should Flanders. It would be only fair, when people start losing their jobs, it will be the French speaking workers who have to go first, maybe they can find a job at LGG or CRL. It is not fair, but it is not Flanders who started this.

And if you keep denying politics in todays economy in Belgium, you are just plain naive and not willing to see the truth. I have nothing against Walloons, but at least I see what's going on.

And what Riemst does is politics indeed, but like I pointed out in this post, the same goes for Brussels. All is politics, whether you like it or not.

[jan_olieslagers]

Imagine if wallonia was making a huge stress everytime the flemish harbours had a success, crazy.

They DID make a big fuss every time a Flemish harbour wanted an investment. Remember the almost unused "plan incliné" (a nice landmark on VFR navigation flights, though)? That was compensation for some Flemish port investment, can't remember which. And why is Antwerp port still waiting for its second second railroad, after decades of pleading?

Sorry for going politics, but Conti764 rightly pointed out that this is unavoidable in this particular case. Let's remain polite, though.

That's just about not spending the whole money on only one side of the country. It is fair.
There are compensation between Charleroi and Liège too. For airports, and many other stuff. Fair.

How now? Two posts ago you called it "crazy" and now suddenly it's become "fair" ? What did I miss?

[Megaman]

A nice hot topic with a lot of hot reactions . Always pleasent.

I think you need to see a few things here.

take away all internal frontiers (no flanders, no Wallonia, no brussels region), it makes sense to have your planes fly over less dense populated areas in order to cause the least disruption. For those penalized by this decision, the airport needs to compensate. It was decided that Brussels would be flown over as well as the neighboring rural villages and towns. This doesn't make sense and if I was mayor of a large town I would do all in my power to avoid my densly populated city to be flown over by night and by day.

Who is to blame? No one. People are entitled to sleep and security. You can't blame the people of neighboring villages because they deserve sleep and Brussels because they deserve security.

Night flights are obviously a problem for many people so it makes sense to put the flights where they create less problems. It so happens that LGG is an airport which meets this criterai although there is opposition coming from Maastricht and south Limburg now.

We should (if we're Belgian) be content that Cargo B didn't decide to rename itself CargoLux Bis, Cargo Poland or Cargo Nl. The jobs are staying inside of Belgium and this helps everybody, north and south. If you can't see this, I suggest you think about this until you do. Isn't it better for jobs to be transferred to LGG where they can help fund the pensions, the crisis measures which are going to be taken in the next years, technical unemployment, etc instead of disapearing from belgium altogher? the net impact on the macroeconomic level is negligeable in one case and negative in the other.

A lot of opportunities exist in Belgium for BRU (EC and NATO developement, high level of foreign investments, etc.). I strongly believe that Cargo B will quickly be replaced at BRU. Perhaps not in the 2 years to come because I've heard there's the biggest crisis since WW2 going on, but Brussels is a growing city with a growing demand for air travel.

It's not a menace. It's an opportunity for everyone in these difficult times.

One problem we have in Belgium is the obvious lack of talent amongst our politicians.

And everyone knows it's going to get worse until the end of the country. Stupid if you ask me. I was born in Flanders, My father came from Flanders, my mother brussels, now live in the south, speak four languages, my siblings are in the north, my wife is italian... I dare say I love my country but I do have a problem with what some people are turning it into... Don't know about you but I refuse to accept politicians turning us against each other.

[Super Baloo]

Hello,

I normally don't take part to those discussions but I begin to be a little fed up with those useless politics oriented discussions between Flemish and Waloon.

Flanders has also an full freight airport in its territory. It is along the coast and it is named OST. It is open 24/7 as well and it is extremely under-used.
If Cargo B and its shareholders (including the Flemish government) decided to move to LGG instead of OST or even to stay in BRU, don't you think for a minute that it could be because LGG has offered better facilities and operational flexibility compared to what OST could have offered.
Cargo B brings back almost exclusively perishables from South America and soon from Africa. A full plane with flowers, it is 10 trucks waiting to drive to AMS. When you divert because of curfew, you have to send those trucks to somewhere else and it costs money. The first time, they find it OK, the second time, they start yelling.
With OST or LGG, you don't have such problems and it helps a lot with your customers.
Now please, instead of bitching about the politics, please ask yourself why OST could not get Cargo B (same distance to BRU and almost same to AMS). Not everything is about Flemish and Waloon yelling at each other, it is also sometimes about good (or bad) management and about economical neccesities.
If somebody is to blame, it is more the OST management than the Waloon transport minister.

Now back to the interesting topic, if they go to LGG, who will be the handler ? LACHS, TNT or Aviapartner ? Is the new Aviapartner warehouse ready ? If not, I can't possibly see how they will manage Ethiopian, El Al and Cargo B at the same time.
Will the head office stay in Brucargo or will it move to Liège as well ?

Thank you.

[Conti764]

take away all internal frontiers (no flanders, no Wallonia, no brussels region), it makes sense to have your planes fly over less dense populated areas in order to cause the least disruption. For those penalized by this decision, the airport needs to compensate. It was decided that Brussels would be flown over as well as the neighboring rural villages and towns. This doesn't make sense and if I was mayor of a large town I would do all in my power to avoid my densly populated city to be flown over by night and by day.

Who is to blame? No one. People are entitled to sleep and security. You can't blame the people of neighboring villages because they deserve sleep and Brussels because they deserve security.

So, again, explain to me why twenty years ago this wasn't an issue, even when back in those days planes were far more noisy and were much more poluting then the modern airliners which fly into BRU today?

We should (if we're Belgian) be content that Cargo B didn't decide to rename itself CargoLux Bis, Cargo Poland or Cargo Nl. The jobs are staying inside of Belgium and this helps everybody, north and south. If you can't see this, I suggest you think about this until you do. Isn't it better for jobs to be transferred to LGG where they can help fund the pensions, the crisis measures which are going to be taken in the next years, technical unemployment, etc instead of disapearing from belgium altogher? the net impact on the macroeconomic level is negligeable in one case and negative in the other.

Well, wouldn't it be fair to state that when jobs are starting to dissapear at BRU, it have to be French speaking employees who go first?

[Conti764]

Hello,

I normally don't take part to those discussions but I begin to be a little fed up with those useless politics oriented discussions between Flemish and Waloon.

Flanders has also an full freight airport in its territory. It is along the coast and it is named OST. It is open 24/7 as well and it is extremely under-used.
If Cargo B and its shareholders (including the Flemish government) decided to move to LGG instead of OST or even to stay in BRU, don't you think for a minute that it could be because LGG has offered better facilities and operational flexibility compared to what OST could have offered.
Cargo B brings back almost exclusively perishables from South America and soon from Africa. A full plane with flowers, it is 10 trucks waiting to drive to AMS. When you divert because of curfew, you have to send those trucks to somewhere else and it costs money. The first time, they find it OK, the second time, they start yelling.
With OST or LGG, you don't have such problems and it helps a lot with your customers.
Now please, instead of bitching about the politics, please ask yourself why OST could not get Cargo B (same distance to BRU and almost same to AMS). Not everything is about Flemish and Waloon yelling at each other, it is also sometimes about good (or bad) management and about economical neccesities.
If somebody is to blame, it is more the OST management than the Waloon transport minister.

Now back to the interesting topic, if they go to LGG, who will be the handler ? LACHS, TNT or Aviapartner ? Is the new Aviapartner warehouse ready ? If not, I can't possibly see how they will manage Ethiopian, El Al and Cargo B at the same time.
Will the head office stay in Brucargo or will it move to Liège as well ?

Thank you.

First of all, who are you to decide which kind of discussions are being allowed here? They only once who can do so, is an admin or a mod. If they decide this discussion is unappropriate, I will end i without any discussion but it is and stays my opinion that this discussion has at least something to do with politics so it should be allowed for once.

Second, you don't know if the Walloon government has something to do with the move from Cargo B to LGG. I they, in some way, provide the same backing they did with Ryanair at CRL, then it is about politics and then it is fair to say that the Flemish government finally has to start countering these moves.

[Acid-drop]

Now back to the interesting topic, if they go to LGG, who will be the handler ? LACHS, TNT or Aviapartner ? Is the new Aviapartner warehouse ready ? If not, I can't possibly see how they will manage Ethiopian, El Al and Cargo B at the same time.
Will the head office stay in Brucargo or will it move to Liège as well ?

From : http://www.liegeairport.com/documents/0 ... esseEN.pdf

As far as infrastructures are concerned, Liege Airport has embarked upon the
construction of the number two hub in the northern zone. This new building will
be up and running at the end of April and, along with the one finished in late
2007, will enable 120,000 to 130,000 tonnes of freight to be processed per year.

(in cargo north)...a second 6,250 m² warehouse and 450 m² of offices.

Perfect timing, isnt it ?

More info (and video):
http://www.rtlinfo.be/rtl/news/article/ ... Li%C3%A8ge

Cargo-B boss say : most of employee already live between Liège and Brussels, they'll keep their jobs.