Charges/incentive in LGG

[flightlover]

then now they can start charging normal charges???

[Acid-drop]

Could you give figures of both airports to compare ?
I really hesitated to delete your comment : it's only made to start a fire.
Now, if you are able to discuss about fact with numbers comparison, it become interesting for everyone.
For you info, here are LGG charges : http://www.liegeairport.be/en/airport-charges

[Atlantis]

I really hesitated to delete your comment : it's only made to start a fire.

Oe Acid-drop, be carefull with such a comment. You will hijack this forum when you will do that. As a moderator you have to set back a step. I, and I suppose other members, will not allow that you will delete questions, remarks, etc when they are not a violation against the forum rules.

[Filou]

Acid-drop,I hope you are kidding when you say such things.
Do you really want figures to compare. I can give you these in all honesty, I have copies of presentations LGG made to potential airlines, including their financial offers. I have the same for BRU and for some other european airports too. Believe me that LGG throws money to customers in a way which is not normal and for sure not acceptable.
Again, why do you believe some people are against the attitude of behaviour of LGG ? Because the way they throw money away is simply unbelievable.
Do you realize that even airports such as Leipzig were willing to take LGG to court for their financial behaviour ?
Ever seen an airport who offers inbound handling for free ????? who offers free trucking between your old hub and lgg ???? who offer so much more to "buy" their customer ? Well, LGG does all of it.
Conclusion is simple and easy : it started with Ethiopian and continued till then,all customers were bought - non of them is really earned !
So please open your eyes and face the reality !

[Filou]

And by the way, LGG is not a cargo airport, it's an integrator airport.
Just look at the way BRU reports it's figures in 3 parts: Integrator buss, cargo on FF and cargo on belly.
Ask LGG to do the same, and please look at the "cargo" figures then to compare who is a cargo airport.
BRU = 12 FF Airlines and 1 integrator (with some third parties flying fo the integrator and not included in the FF number)
LGG = 4 FF and 1 integrator (these third parties are not incuded in the FF neither)
Acid-drop, still believe your own words about who is a "cargo" airport ???

[Acid-drop]

I really hesitated to delete your comment : it's only made to start a fire.

Oe Acid-drop, be carefull with such a comment. You will hijack this forum when you will do that. As a moderator you have to set back a step. I, and I suppose other members, will not allow that you will delete questions, remarks, etc when they are not a violation against the forum rules.

They have made me moderator because it was such a mess that we needed daily moderation.
And here is what I have to do again, move out of topic comments to a new topic.
As you, I think freedom of speech is important, so it's better to move some comments than delete them.
LGG news is to discuss about the news, not create a fire about a new subject.
Now with this new topic, everybody is talking about the topic, so there is no more reason to moderate. Enjoy

Filou, you are saying that LGG incentive are so big that they are not normal, so not normal that other player want to go in justice ...
Well ... if Leipzig airport is right, they go to justice, and they win.
If they are not right, they just can be jalous and shut the f* up.
How can you explain that despite such incentive, BRU is able to get a new client and LGG not ? How can you explain that Thai cargo has choosen FRA instead of LGG ...
In my opinion, these incentive are still too low ...
LGG has everything to become a huge major hub in Europe, but it seems to take quite some time (ok, with the new lenth of the track, it should get more clients)...

BRU = 12 FF Airlines and 1 integrator (with some third parties flying fo the integrator and not included in the FF number)
LGG = 4 FF and 1 integrator (these third parties are not incuded in the FF neither)

They do better with less ... to me it looks very positive ...

[Filou]

To reply on the last comment: to do better with less .
Look at the other topic on trucked freight too, and compare apples with apples. Add trucked freight to BRU too and you see the difference. So no, LGG does not do better with less at all and is approx 200.000 tons away then.
Or compare cargo with cargo, and integrator with integrator, there again you will see that FF in BRU is MUCH more than FF in LGG.
And yes, if you compare intergator on both, LGG wins as TNT and subcontractors are bigger in LGG than DHL and subcontractors in BRU. But so what,...
Simple, isn't it ?

Regarding the incentives: when Leipzig adviced to go to court, suddenly LGG stopped to offer that specific incentive, because they KNEW it was forbidden and against the law.
And suddenly their "new" freighter customer disappeared and went back to Leipzig itself. (LGG had attracted it with illegal incentives, it may sound hard but is is just reality - unfortunately)

And why would airlines chose for FRA or others, and not for LGG ? Because it's not all about money my friend, it's about opportunities to be found at the airport, which again is unfortunate but not to be found in LGG.

If money would be the only reason, LGG would have all of them for entire Europe.
Unfortunately, it's not only money that counts. Opportunities such forwarders, different handling companies, it's location within Europe, it's interlining opportunities, it's trucking availability, etc...is all negative in LGG.

Sorry, but I believe that one day you should face the brutal facts about LGG and admit...that your preferate airport is not the real best, not the real most honest, etc...

[Acid-drop]

I never said it was the best
you are just showing that charges and incentives are not so important after all, exactly what I wanted to say too.
Regarding your others comments (I call it negative propaganda with only one goal : defend BRU), you should ask yourself why LGG became so strong in such a small time if everything is negative

[Philippepompier]

Maybe corruption....

[Acid-drop]

Maybe corruption....

Or maybe aliens ?

EDIT : I correct myself : it must be aliens. There is no other way.

[Filou]

Acid-Drop,
In one post you say that incentives should be bigger, and now you say that they aren't of importance...Any idea on what your real point of view is ?
My point is clear: most respected airlines do not care about high incentives, but care about other much more important things that finally and bottom line will make the calculation more interesting. Because they look at the total picture and the total costs, not only airport costs. Finding advantages such as interlining or having forwarders on site will definitely give them benefits which finally end up in money too.
So no, many airlines do not only care about airport charges or incentives.
By the other hand, some airlines - mainly smaller niche market airlines- do. ET is the best example, a loss making governmental owned airline, who is subsidised only to have their vegetables or flowers finding a way to Europe. They have no other product or no other market in mind, and any euro or any 100.000's of Euro they get will reduce their own loss. Of course they do care, it's about reducing their own loss and loosing less governmental money. Unfortunately, LGG attracted them with our own governmental money. and surely when we consider they were flying into BRU where no governmental money was paid for having them there. so a full benefit in fact. But I am not here to talk about this ET case, it's a fact and not more than that.

Why did LGG became so big ? I still call them reasonable middle players, because again, we talk about "only" 4 FF airlines and 1 integrator. And because they focussed on the kind of airlines I told about that do care about money and nothing else.
You should talk to airlines who were willing to operate into LGG, but who bottom line decided to come to BRU because of the benefits for example...Think AT, they had like signed with LGG and TNT ( a disgusting situation even where LGG like forced AT to use LGG because of the fact they leased an TNT aircraft). Luckily they decided last minute to stay ate BRU, accept much bigger charges even from TNT, but they succeeded and even now still grow at BRU. So did AfricaWest, after leaving SPL they were willing to go to LGG but started at BRU. And even 1 year later LGG was pushing hard again and Africawest was like gone, but luckily decided to stay as they had to admit benefits are worth money.And now they admit it is worth money all of it !
And so is the case with many airlines...LGG should have been MUCH bigger if there was anything else to be found than money.

And the Leipzig case was an incredible risk that they took when offering that incentive to an airline, and i can only admit that - Like Mr.Philippe Pompier said - it is close to corruption. But they were smart enough to stop on time, before the real error was done. they airline left and the case was closed.

Now something else...is it true that Mr.Dardenne bought the website www.zattevrienden.be, another famous flemish website

[Acid-drop]

You see, you can be interesting without attacking ... just giving facts and examples ...
You gave 2 good examples, but I still don't understand what are their benefits in BRU.
There's like a hole in the explanation

[flightlover]

You see, you can be interesting without attacking ... just giving facts and examples ...
You gave 2 good examples, but I still don't understand what are their benefits in BRU.
There's like a hole in the explanation

I think this has to do with the road trip time (or distance) from the manufacturer to the airport, Brussels simply has more sourcse to pull from. LGG lies about in the midle of the dessert in comparison with BRU IMHO.

[liege-bierset]

Acid-drop:
I don't understand why you are still loosing your time arguing with them.
They are just being provocative, pathetically arrogant and anti-Walloon.
I am sick and tired of reading their usual crappy posts (about CRL and LGG)
We all know that BRU is the best place in the world, they have the most honest and most competent mgt team and blablaba...
The only problem: BRU have lost one third of their cargo volume (09 vs 08) and it's not the end of the story!
Btw Mr. Pompier: you should be careful when you use the word "corruption". Even if the webmaster is accepting such a slanderous insinuation on this thread, you may run into troubles....

[Filou]

Btw, Mr Pompier said "maybe', which can be any way. It's not insinuating, it's a way that it could be, or couldn't.And everybody thinks it it's own way.

Let me give an example for Acid Drop about benefits,to understand why for example a cargo airline decided to leave MST - a small but beautifull airport- a few years ago to move to BRU. I am taking the MST example as I believe MST can be compared to LGG in some ways (cost-wise for example).
MST is much cheaper than BRU, and MST has/had a wonderfull handling service at perfect rates.
Everybody was happy, cheap cost, great service, only...the cargo division of the airline was still lossmaking. They flew their own aircraft over MST to the US and back, which was BIG part of the losses.
When considering BRU, they had to consider indeed much higher costs, a much higher handling rate, and for sure less handling service or quality.
But...at BRU they had an opportunity of interling their US cargo with many other US carriers, meaning that they could directly stop flying their own aircraft over the ocean, which was resulting in less losses for sure.
They did it, they moved, they accepted nuch hgher charges, much higher cost at any stage, but were able to co=work with pax airlines filling their belly space, and saving money on their own Atlantic flight.
By having their aircraft available, they could fly one or two extra rotings to bru, always filled with nice cargo.
And so m suddeny after a few months, their cargo division was profitable again, sonthing they had not seen for years...
This is just to prove that for example the availability of most of the US carriers is a benefit, that nice agreements can be nade with them, and that finally it is this ind of benefit that will make the calculation turn out positive or negative...
This example is one directly visible to the airline.
You can have others like for example the forwarders presence, being based at Brucargo it gives you the opportunity to bring/take out carg whenever you wantm at a cheap price because with the forklift. If cargo flies over LGG, it will take you a much longer time. Or you have to drive yourself which will be a high cost, or the airline offers the service, but then anyway you will have to deliver earlier or get your goods later.
inbound perishable for example at BRU is available 120 minutes after arrival, which is interesting if you have to compete and when time is needed. If that same cargo would fly over LGG it will take time at LGG, then on the road, then in the handling at BRU before being available for pick up...
Hope this clarifies a litte bit more...

And to Liege Bierset, I NEVER said BRU is the best as such, but if you compare both one has more advantages than the other. Same if you compare it financially, BRU is still profitable while LGG is loss-making without the support of the government ( which is about 50 % of the turnover)

[Atlantis]

We speak here about Royal Jordanian Cargo. After they arrived at BRU they deployed new cargo routes to Caïro, Tripoly, Algiers, etc and they increased their number of flights because the aircrafts were available because BRU is their final destination.

[Acid-drop]

I think this has to do with the road trip time (or distance) from the manufacturer to the airport, Brussels simply has more sourcse to pull from. LGG lies about in the midle of the dessert in comparison with BRU IMHO.

That I must say is pure madness
It's only 1hour more to the west or 1h less to the east => it's nothing.
Remember most FF LGG trafic is intercontinental (if not 100%).

Filou : I understand the logic. That's what I have already said : if a cargo airline need belly cargo for interlining, BRU is for sure the best option. In all other cases, LGG seems to be the best option.
They should know from the begining what they need. The market is cut in 2 and thus the 2 airports should not fight between each other.

Liege-bierset : I continue to argue with Filou because he's the only one that seems to have good info about the cargo industry.

If that same cargo would fly over LGG it will take time at LGG, then on the road, then in the handling at BRU before being available for pick up...

I see no reason to make LGG => BRU ... most trafic leave LGG for final destination by truck, right ?
Or maybe the forwarders didn't understand yet that LGG is now big enough to make an office there ?

[Filou]

Acid-drop,
It's not only about being big enough...Brucargo as such is a small village, with about 100 different forwarding agents, but with a lot of benefits that are not to be found in LGG (custom advantages, forklift driving allowed, free movement without custom clearing, etc)
Now give me one reason please why a forwarding agent should base himself at LGG...more than 80 % of the Belgian export cargo comes out of Flanders and Brussels, so why would he drive longer and further than BRU at higher cost even ?
Except the 5 airlines , no other airlines give opportunities (I honestly don't know how much belly is to be found at LGG). At BRU you have except the 13 cargo airlines the entre bench of pax airlines who also want belly cargo.
etc etc etc...

[Acid-drop]

LGG is not there for Belgian import/export. It seems then logical that only full freighters without belly cargo need use it. LGG looks like an european entry point for intercontinental move ...
Different approach because of different needs.
Again, there is then no reason for the 2 airports to fight between each other and that's good.

more than 80 % of the Belgian export cargo comes out of Flanders and Brussels, so why would he drive longer and further than BRU

Well, One hour drive with a truck doesn't look like a big deal to me if it can save some money, but I get the idea. Simpler is sometime nicer than cheaper.
Furthermore, I'm not sure we should focus on belgium. Liège is perfectly located near other economic centers abroad.

[regi]

LGG is not there for Belgian import/export. It seems then logical that only full freighters without belly cargo need use it. LGG looks like an european entry point for intercontinental move ...
Different approach because of different needs.
Again, there is then no reason for the 2 airports to fight between each other and that's good.

more than 80 % of the Belgian export cargo comes out of Flanders and Brussels, so why would he drive longer and further than BRU

Well, One hour drive with a truck doesn't look like a big deal to me if it can save some money, but I get the idea. Simpler is sometime nicer than cheaper.
Furthermore, I'm not sure we should focus on belgium. Liège is perfectly located near other economic centers abroad.

I hope that you are aware about shipping costs: it costs more to transport a container by road from Antwerp to Liege than to ship it from Shanghai to Antwerp by boat. ( OK, I know that this kind of cargo will normally not get "airborn" because of the higher cost of air cargo )
So distance does matter.