Charges/incentive in LGG

[Acid-drop]

It seems the military will leave Bierset in Sept 2010.
It means a lot of space to expand but also quite some change in the tower...

Except the space, it will normally mean that extra charges will also have to be paid, because without military, Belgocontrol should do that work, and be paid for it...
and then there are again only 2 solutions: airlines as such pay for it, as it is the case in BRU and many other airports, or the Walloon government decides to incentivise this, which again will mean extra money for the airport and it's balance sheet

Your answer here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz2WKpZT6ak

[taz1968]

To Filou:

Filou yes I am a dutchman, but working at LGG.
And I trust, there is some truth in what you say, but......
It's almost impossible as an Airport to give free import handling and trucking to a company to there old airports, because 200.000-300.000 euro's especially with MAS will not be enough I think we are talking than about more than 1 million euro's a year.
And you can tell me anything, but that I can't believe, since LGG would never be able to provide that, on a yearly bases, especially since you tell me, they are doing the same thing with ETH... than we are already talking about 2 million a year.
EL AL too?? then we are talking about 3 million a year and so on.......

Maybe I'm a 100% incorrect in this matter, but untill i can see real proof in this matter i can't believe it.

And yes I believe that LGG offers maybe considerably higher incentives as that Brussels does, but LGG needs in order to attract customers, work much harder than Brussels does.
And yes of course LGG is way cheaper than Brussels, because otherwise LGG wouldn't have any customers.
That has nothing to do with incentives, but just the way it works in the big bussiness world.

If LGG management goes to a customer, if they would consider flying to LGG, the first question the customer asks....." where in the h.ll is LGG located".
Instead of BRU "a yes thats the capitol of Belgium/Europe".

Incentives high or not, at the end a healthy airliner doesn't care about them, they only care if there own customers are happy!!!
And be honest the customer at the end decides where a airliner flies from and to.

CargoB was a company in problems.... and i believe they tried to get money anyway they could and yes apparently LGG was prepared to put some money in.... I don't find it strange than that LGG has the condition they fly from LGG.
Either way BRU was gonna loose them anyhow, either they went broke or fly from LGG.
At the end it doesn't matter, we all know what happened..

[taz1968]

The number of weekly jumbo is rather a useless unrepresentative number, but since you have started, I may correct :
This is taken from january flows, which are lower than nov/dec for ex.
It shows real numbers from official schedule when possible

Per week :
10 X EL AL (could be more)
10 X ETH 747 (operated by Southern) + MD11 (7x ?)
15 X CAL
7 X TNT (744) + ABX (10+ x ?)
30 X Kallita (but well ... it could be 280, it's not changing anything)
7 x Avient DC10/MD11 (could be more, i'm not so sure)
2 x charter (could be any company, but mostly an124 and evergreen 747, sometimes southernair flying for itself )

So if we take anything bigger than a 737, there's like >100 big birds flying per week. Anything smaller or equal to a 737 is flying for TNT.

Acid, where do you get these numbers of?
I'm not discussing whether EL AL does 7X or 10X a week, because thats peanuts, although 10X seems high.
the same with ETH and Kalitta.
I work at LGG but I never seen more than 6X avient a week and thats when they had 2 aircraft.
This month if they do 3 X week its a lot

[Acid-drop]

it's an average from official schedule or atc logs
it can be wrong ...
as you say, it's not so important ...

[Filou]

Now suddenly the entire figure case is "not so important any more" ???
That's where the discussion was all about, but now it seems not so important anymore ?
well well well, and that for a moderator who should focus on the discussion itself and skip all the rest
They will never stop surprising us

[Acid-drop]

I never said the number of flights was important.
Only the tonnage is.
you know, what made LGG #1

[taz1968]

it's an average from official schedule or atc logs
it can be wrong ...
as you say, it's not so important ...

One last remark in this
Acid, don't believe the official published schedule.
Certainly the avient one is after the MD11 crash not up to date anymore.

EL AL published schedule seems also incorrect, since a few flights published, didn't fly for over 6 months
Also the ATC plans off EL AL seems incorrect, because sometimes i see flights, supposed to arrive into LGG, which I'm certain actually are not coming (maybe automated atc filing is the cause of this)

ETH is the most accurate you gave, 7 X ETH 747 and 7 x MD11 is closest to the actual on average.

About CAL i dont know, but seems this is also a little bit much
Kallita seems way less, maybe they did last week 30 flights, but if i look at this week it seems way less

Also keep in mind, for perishable flights this is high season, and those flights will be considerably less from april.
This mainly affects ETH, EL AL and CAL, since import is mostly perishables.

so if i look at the year average: 50 B747/week seems ok to me.

[sn26567]

It seems the military will leave Bierset in Sept 2010.
It means a lot of space to expand but also quite some change in the tower...

Except the space, it will normally mean that extra charges will also have to be paid, because without military, Belgocontrol should do that work, and be paid for it...
and then there are again only 2 solutions: airlines as such pay for it, as it is the case in BRU and many other airports, or the Walloon government decides to incentivise this, which again will mean extra money for the airport and it's balance sheet

Your answer here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz2WKpZT6ak

In brief, the military controllers will stay for another 5 years, but an arrangement must be found on who is going to pay them.

The Wing Helicopters will move to Beauvechain/Bevekom in September: that is sure!

[Acid-drop]

taz : look at (a part of) the log of today

Code: Select all

04:10 CKS421 B744
04:25 ELY801 B742
04:55 TAY123P B463
04:55 ICL901 B742
05:40 CKS268 B742 
06:00 TAY805S B463
07:55 ETH3718 MD11
08:10 CKS625 B742 

That's a crazy time ... in fact you may see only a small part of the trafic during the day and the schedule and atc could be right. What do you think ?

[flightlover]

taz : look at (a part of) the log of today

Code: Select all

04:10 CKS421 B744
04:25 ELY801 B742
04:55 TAY123P B463
04:55 ICL901 B742
05:40 CKS268 B742 
06:00 TAY805S B463
07:55 ETH3718 MD11
08:10 CKS625 B742 

That's a crazy time ... in fact you may see only a small part of the trafic during the day and the schedule and atc could be right. What do you think ?

Is this a schedule of arrived airplanes or one of planes planned to come? If the latter is the case it might just be only one of them realy arrived.

btw where can I find the arrival times of cargo flights at liège online, only in the locked section?

[liege-bierset]

Today, normal day... 27/01/10
Expected Arrivals at LGG
ABX (two B767)
SOO (two 742)
CKS (5 B742)
ELAL (4 B742 ex TLV)
CAL (2 B742 ex TLV)
ET (1 MD11 and 1 B742)
Avient ?
Ukraine 1 B737F
TNT from PVG 3V2 (1-3-5-7)
from HKG 3V48 (2-4-6)
from GOT 3V913 (2)
Flight numbers if you wish.
Rgds.
Forgot 2 B757 ICE from KFL

[taz1968]

Today, normal day... 27/01/10
Expected Arrivals at LGG

ELAL (4 B742 ex TLV)

ET (1 MD11 and 1 B742)
Rgds.
Forgot 2 B757 ICE from KFL

Once more EL AL is not correct will be only 1

[Acid-drop]

btw where can I find the arrival times of cargo flights at liège online, only in the locked section?

It's not available online. We have some info (not always right as you can see) from atc logs, but i'm not the source.

[regi]

As far as I have experienced myself the 20 years, the data about El Al flights is almost always incorrect. Officials point to the special status of this operator: security.

[Filou]

I can confirm that the CAL data is wrong too, as they fly 767 during the week and not 747-200.

PS:I made wonderfull walk on the LGG tarmac this morning,cold but super weather, 2 aircraft standing still, and NO movement at all for the rest. And wonderfull heated and almost emty warehouses.
But, lovely enjoyable and easy procedures as for example no service drive in installed, so no extra security check, etc.
It felt like a good walk in an enjoyable quit place

[Acid-drop]

I can confirm that the CAL data is wrong too, as they fly 767 during the week and not 747-200.

They fly both. 767 (ABX) to NY, 747 to tel aviv.

PS:I made wonderfull walk on the LGG tarmac this morning,cold but super weather, 2 aircraft standing still, and NO movement at all for the rest. And wonderfull heated and almost emty warehouses.
But, lovely enjoyable and easy procedures as for example no service drive in installed, so no extra security check, etc.
It felt like a good walk in an enjoyable quit place

ow ... you discovered the manipulation ...
LGG was all fake, they became #1 with NO planes at all.
In fact, I have heard that a special delegation of the dutch embassador in belgium is in negociation to use the 3700m of LGG track to make a huge greenhouse and grow tulips. (secret, don't tell)

[Filou]

Again, CAL flies 767 during the week and only 2 times 747 during the week-end.

Question: have they been thinking/planning how to adust the tarmac in case the service drive - which SPL will also need to implement now- will be implemented in LGG ? One day - hopefully soon- it will be a rule. What is going to happen then ?
How many meters will be lost and how it will affect the parkingplaces, etc ? What will be the result on handling time/quality ?
Is that part of their masterplan in fact ?

[Filou]

And by the way, the dutch embasador was there to meet his Dutch compatriotes who are managing the handling over there. And who are doing great by the way. Pity even they don't know that the airport offers half of their well done job free of charges and subsidises it.
There used to be a time when their great job was duly paid for...

[Acid-drop]

no kidding, the dutch embassador was really there ?

[liege-bierset]

What a steam here !
This thread should be renamed " Hammering on Liege-Airport ".
You ask for explaination to REGI and FILOU answers....
Why dont you try to find and other punching ball ?