2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Locked
Desert Rat
Posts: 1137
Joined: 08 May 2007, 09:38

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Desert Rat »

Now the runway is 3300 meters long, but they increase the lenght to 3800meters, to allow some A/C's to not have penalties for TO or for landing,
In the case of a let's say 747-200, what is the limitation with all system operative,(T/R and brakes all operatives).

When a T/R is deactivated for TO, there's no performance adjustment bacause the basic perf data is computed without T/R, but the landing distance will be longer with the T/R inop.

When a brake is deactivated, there's an impact on the TO performance, and the landing performance is increased by some percentage( 20%??),

So what is the limitation for a 747-200 on the actual runway(3200m) TO and landing???

In other words wich A/C are able to TO from LGG @ max structural weight???

:?:
Last edited by Desert Rat on 31 Jan 2010, 07:32, edited 1 time in total.

liege-bierset
Posts: 292
Joined: 26 Nov 2009, 19:44
Location: belgium
Contact:

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by liege-bierset »

CARGO B
Ex CARGO B a/c B747 00-CBB is leaving LGG for an unknown destination. on 01/02/10 ETD 00.59
It was stored at LGG since several month.

Acid-drop
Posts: 2883
Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 00:00
Location: Liège, BE
Contact:

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Acid-drop »

I guess this one is going in the desert ...

taz1968
Posts: 17
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 01:30

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by taz1968 »

Filou wrote:He wants to know why a full 747 both with cargo and fuel can not take off at LGG then...
:lol:
Well let me try to answer it, the simple way:

Every A/C has a maximum structural take off weight MTOW called.
MTOW although can be limited by several factors.
1)Temperature: the lower the temperature, the higher the lift
2)At which hight (compared to sea level), the higher the runway, the lower the average air density, which means less lift.
3) Air pressure, the higher it is the more lift.
4) Issues to the A/C itself which limit MTOW (this means not that the A/C is unsafe)

In the case of runway lenght of LGG, all these factors, give as an result, that a B747 especially at high temperatures during summer, can not reach its MTOW, but is restricted in it.
So means it either can take 5 tons less fuel or cargo (random figure).

To increase TOW, even during high temperature, the A/C needs more speed to create the necessary lift, to reach the higher speed, it needs a longer Runway.

So in the case, the runway length improvement now in process at LGG, will mean less A/C will me limited in their MTOW, which means more payload-->more profit on a flight

Hopefully this explains it to you all :)

liege-bierset
Posts: 292
Joined: 26 Nov 2009, 19:44
Location: belgium
Contact:

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by liege-bierset »

I agree with previous posts: stay on topic !
However, for me, TAZ1968 "technical posts" are very good, clearly expressed and useful.
Thanks TAZ :!:

Desert Rat
Posts: 1137
Joined: 08 May 2007, 09:38

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Desert Rat »

Thanks for your message TAZ,

We can understand from your answer that the 747's are limited during summer time in LGG due to high Outside Air Temperature,meaning that the limitation is the TOD(Take Off Distance) or the ASD(Accelerate-Stop distance),The 747-200 will probably benefit the most from this runway extension their TO performance being lower than the 747-400.

Another solution to increase the -200 TO Perf. would be to retrofit them with modern and enhanced braking system,Tires and brakes(carbon instead of steel)supporting higher decceleration in order to reduce the Accelerate-Stop distance.

On the other hand a longer runway means higher Flex TO temperature, it's full benefit for the engine's life, Higher Flex = Less thrust = lower EGT = Maintenance cost savings.

In summary: what's the best economical solution between Runway extension vs Improved A/C's perfo.

On one side the cost is supported by the Airport on the other it's the operators who have to pay the check.

So I guess the decision to Increase the runway lenght to 3800m was the right one.

Acid-drop
Posts: 2883
Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 00:00
Location: Liège, BE
Contact:

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Acid-drop »


taz1968
Posts: 17
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 01:30

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by taz1968 »

Desert Rat wrote:Thanks for your message TAZ,

We can understand from your answer that the 747's are limited during summer time in LGG due to high Outside Air Temperature,meaning that the limitation is the TOD(Take Off Distance) or the ASD(Accelerate-Stop distance),The 747-200 will probably benefit the most from this runway extension their TO performance being lower than the 747-400.

Another solution to increase the -200 TO Perf. would be to retrofit them with modern and enhanced braking system,Tires and brakes(carbon instead of steel)supporting higher decceleration in order to reduce the Accelerate-Stop distance.

On the other hand a longer runway means higher Flex TO temperature, it's full benefit for the engine's life, Higher Flex = Less thrust = lower EGT = Maintenance cost savings.

In summary: what's the best economical solution between Runway extension vs Improved A/C's perfo.

On one side the cost is supported by the Airport on the other it's the operators who have to pay the check.

So I guess the decision to Increase the runway lenght to 3800m was the right one.
You are correct.
Only landing distance is not the problem at liege, so retro fitting in the case of LGG seems pointless.
To give an example:
Even MST with there short runway, a B747 can land with MLW (max landing weight), CLX is landing each day with 120tons of payload, although there the braking is an issue.

Desert Rat
Posts: 1137
Joined: 08 May 2007, 09:38

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Desert Rat »

Regarding your exemple TAZ,you say that there's a braking issue in the case of an aircraft landing at MLW @ MST, Is it just because they have to delay the next TO because the brakes are too hot ?
or when OAT is too high the brakes overpass their max limit temperature during the landing itself?

I'm curious, I know... ;)

I have heard that some operators cools down the brakes with Air Conditioning unit(when they don't have Brake cooling fans,Are 747 equipped with fans?..) to allow the brake to be @ a suitable temperature for the next TO.But I don't know if it's common in Europe to do this...

Nevihta
Posts: 444
Joined: 24 Dec 2008, 16:31

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Nevihta »

Desert Rat wrote:Regarding your exemple TAZ,you say that there's a braking issue in the case of an aircraft landing at MLW @ MST, Is it just because they have to delay the next TO because the brakes are too hot ?
or when OAT is too high the brakes overpass their max limit temperature during the landing itself?
Perhaps also if braking action is not good.

taz1968
Posts: 17
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 01:30

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by taz1968 »

Desert Rat wrote:Regarding your exemple TAZ,you say that there's a braking issue in the case of an aircraft landing at MLW @ MST, Is it just because they have to delay the next TO because the brakes are too hot ?
or when OAT is too high the brakes overpass their max limit temperature during the landing itself?

I'm curious, I know... ;)

I have heard that some operators cools down the brakes with Air Conditioning unit(when they don't have Brake cooling fans,Are 747 equipped with fans?..) to allow the brake to be @ a suitable temperature for the next TO.But I don't know if it's common in Europe to do this...
At MST with B747/200 brakes sometimes run hot, due the short runway lenght.
But this is mainly the problem, when A/C has a late landing (so overruns ideal landingspot).
Also due to the runway has a "small bump" in it, the runway for a pilot seems shorter (since he can not see the end) then in reality, so he sometimes brakes to much.
In that case they cool the brakes with Air condition unit or airstarter, sometimes even with water, but only when brakes are seriously over heated.
So incase of next T/O, first brake temperature has to be brought down to exceptable levels, before A/C can depart again.

B747 have cooling fans, but they only work when engines are running.

And no. it is not common use in europe, but sometimes is needed

haflinger
Posts: 27
Joined: 09 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Sometimes in Belgium
Contact:

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by haflinger »

taz1968 wrote:
At MST with B747/200 brakes sometimes run hot, due the short runway lenght.
But this is mainly the problem, when A/C has a late landing (so overruns ideal landingspot).
Also due to the runway has a "small bump" in it, the runway for a pilot seems shorter (since he can not see the end) then in reality, so he sometimes brakes to much.
In that case they cool the brakes with Air condition unit or airstarter, sometimes even with water, but only when brakes are seriously over heated.
So incase of next T/O, first brake temperature has to be brought down to exceptable levels, before A/C can depart again.

B747 have cooling fans, but they only work when engines are running.

And no. it is not common use in europe, but sometimes is needed
Just 2 questions:
-Are you a pilot or a technician? (no offense, but your explanations seems quite strange)
-What is a late landing? :)

Concerning the brake fan, I hope you're joking, nobody would put water on a brake assembly of a 747 to cool donw, unless it's on fire.
And the brake fans are working even when engines are shut down! It's electric (unless it's not equiped with brake fan/ it's u/s).
Many aircrafts have brake fans and are use routinely on every flight. (A320, 747, 146, even concorde had them (the first, if I remember well)).

Regards
I

taz1968
Posts: 17
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 01:30

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by taz1968 »

haflinger wrote:
Just 2 questions:
-Are you a pilot or a technician? (no offense, but your explanations seems quite strange)
-What is a late landing? :)

Concerning the brake fan, I hope you're joking, nobody would put water on a brake assembly of a 747 to cool donw, unless it's on fire.
And the brake fans are working even when engines are shut down! It's electric (unless it's not equiped with brake fan/ it's u/s).
Many aircrafts have brake fans and are use routinely on every flight. (A320, 747, 146, even concorde had them (the first, if I remember well)).

Regards
I
I'm neither, but you already guessed that.
But I,m working with A/C for more than 15 years, not as an technician and not as an pilot.
So I'm not familiar with all the technical details, but know in general why above is needed.
so forgive me to all you pilots and technicians if some words are not the correct ones :oops:
Your right about the water, but i said it is only done in serious circumstances (didn't want to use the word fire)
With a late landing, i mean:
Every runway has a perfect landing point, the ILS guides you to that point, you can either land short (which gives the risk you land in the mud) or you can overfly that point, which gives you 2 options:
1) if you only miss it by a few meters, brake some harder
Especially with short runways important
2) or do a new approach.

I'll do my best to be more clear next time ;)
But don't get to technical on the A/C itself, thats a question a a/c mechanic can answer better

Desert Rat
Posts: 1137
Joined: 08 May 2007, 09:38

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Desert Rat »

haflinger wrote: Concerning the brake fan, I hope you're joking, nobody would put water on a brake assembly of a 747 to cool donw, unless it's on fire.
I
It is true that it is not recommended at all to spray water or other liquid on a hot heat pack,that could create an explosion and damage the brake or wheel severely.Even de-icing peoples should be careful when they spray the De-Icing fluid on the brakes...
But when it burst into flammes, I guess it is more than recommended... ;) ...

Brakes fans are optionals on some A/C's like the A320, and studies needs to be done to see whether it is necessary to have them or not, the brake fans have a weight and a tag price, they are most of the time used on high elevation airports with high AOT,short runways and really needed particularly when you do tankering and you fly to these destinations.

But you can operate without them, the only preblem is that you will have to delay your TO, if you have a short turnaround, the time for the heat pack to cool down and be efficient enough in case you reject the next TO.

Note that the Carbon brakes are more efficient when they are warm, reason why it is not recommended to use the brake fans on Carbon brakes if the brakes have not reached the heat warning treshold.

wilmot
Posts: 5
Joined: 15 Jun 2006, 00:00

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by wilmot »

In that case they cool the brakes with Air condition unit or airstarter, sometimes even with water, but only when brakes are seriously over heated.

Only a complete IDIOT who has a death wish would put water on a hot set of aircraft brakes........ Talk about staying on topic .....How about not posting stuff you clearly know nothing about........ This thread is about Liege 2010, not about distroying an Aircrafts U/C.... Great thread but Fact instead of Fiction would be better for all of us who work there.......... :!:

haflinger
Posts: 27
Joined: 09 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Sometimes in Belgium
Contact:

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by haflinger »

Desert Rat wrote:
Brakes fans are optionals on some A/C's like the A320, and studies needs to be done to see whether it is necessary to have them or not, the brake fans have a weight and a tag price, they are most of the time used on high elevation airports with high AOT,short runways and really needed particularly when you do tankering and you fly to these destinations.

But you can operate without them, the only preblem is that you will have to delay your TO, if you have a short turnaround, the time for the heat pack to cool down and be efficient enough in case you reject the next TO.

Note that the Carbon brakes are more efficient when they are warm, reason why it is not recommended to use the brake fans on Carbon brakes if the brakes have not reached the heat warning treshold.
Hi,

Sorry guys, I don't want to debate on brake fans use or be the teacher, but... no need to invent answers.


Please stop your myth "only high elevation, tankering, heavy aircraft, high oat, long landing (not late landing),bla bla bla".

These are factors influencing brake fans use, but their are widely used in day to day operation also in belgium, also in winter!
BTW carbon brake optimal t° is around 100° (haven't checked in my books, but from what I've been taught).
A simple 10' taxi is sufficient to warm your brakes. So even with carbon brakes you very often have to use your brake fans.

Example:
A320, landing with autobrake MED, temperature rises around 430° (usual temperature), short taxi in to the gate. 30' turnaround, and a 15' taxi to the runway. Without brake fan it can be impossible for you to take off.
Guess what. That's why we have breake fan... QED

Regards

Desert Rat
Posts: 1137
Joined: 08 May 2007, 09:38

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Desert Rat »

haflinger wrote:[

Please stop your myth "only high elevation, tankering, heavy aircraft, high oat, long landing (not late landing),bla bla bla".
I didn't say that was only used in these cases, I said that Operators when they make their choice to have or not brake fans installed on their fleet, request to the different brake manufacturer(Messier-Bugatti,Honeywell or Goodrich) analysis with the most severe conditions.

The overhaul or replacement of the heat pack is very expensive and has a huge impact on the direct maintenance cost of an A/C, the two main factors are
-Brake temperature, altough there's no linear relation between brake temperature and brake wear,
- the number of brake applications.

The wear rate on the three differents manufacturers is very different with a max wear rate @ 80, 160 and 180 Celsius...meaning to have the brake at the right temperature at the right time is very important.

A misuse of the braking system potentialy leads to thermal oxidation of the brakes,
-like no use of thrust reversers (Manufacturers usually recommend Max Thrust Rev.)
-Landing in flap CONF3
-Autobrake overriden to take 1st exit.

So during taxi,
-Do not ride the brakes
-Firm applications

You might say that this is blablabla, but it is just the difference between operators having to replace the heat pack @ 1800 cycles and other who will replace them @ 2500cycles...

Filou
Posts: 65
Joined: 03 Jul 2009, 10:58

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Filou »

Congrats to LGG airport again, LGG succeeded once more to take a customer from BRU away...how great it is...luckily a single weekly flight ;)

(edited by a moderator to remove the offensive part)

Acid-drop
Posts: 2883
Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 00:00
Location: Liège, BE
Contact:

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Acid-drop »

?
more info ? A single weekly flight ? with a piper ? That's my sunday fresh orange juice probably

Filou
Posts: 65
Joined: 03 Jul 2009, 10:58

Re: 2010 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

Post by Filou »

a single weekly 747 flight, Rest will follow...

Locked