BA wide-body order in 2007

CX · Post by CX » 28 Sep 2007, 13:43

Yes, and the 787 is really both a short haul and long haul plane, which i don't think any of the XWB variants can match in short haul..
I wonder what 'improvements' Boeing has for the 773ER, what can they change? new engines, improved aerodynamics, new cabin? That's pretty much all i can think of, like how Airbus proposed the A340-Enhanced, but what it will be facing is an all composite Airbus, but of course the 773ER will still be bigger than the XWB-1000.
748I will rack up more orders, Emirates nearly surely will order some, since they use some of their A388s as 750-800 seaters right? the 748I will fill the 450-500seat gap for them. But thing is airlines seem to be reasonbaly happy putting just over 450seats in the A380.

Post by **sn26567** » 28 Sep 2007, 16:56

The Airbus press release:

British Airways to buy 12 Airbus A380 aircraft for long haul fleet
27 September 2007

British Airways will buy 12 Airbus A380 aircraft as part of the airlines’ long term fleet modernisation. The announcement marks the first time British Airways has selected to introduce Airbus aircraft for the company’s long haul fleet. The decision vindicates Airbus’ product strategy. The A380 is a key part of the solution for sustainable growth and eco efficiency in air transportation.

The aircraft will be powered by Rolls-Royce engines.

“The Airbus A380 will provide a great solution for our high density markets and get the most out of scarce London Heathrow slots. We said that environmental considerations would feature highly in our choice and our decision to buy these aircraft is consistent with this”, said Willie Walsh, British Airways Chief Executive.

“British Airways’ decision is another breakthrough for our flagship Airbus A380. After an intensive year-long competitive evaluation British Airways’ choice is proof our product is the right aircraft to tackle growth, airport capacity constraints as well as environmental concerns. We are delighted British Airways will be flying Airbus aircraft for the first time on their long haul routes”, said Tom Enders, Airbus CEO.

Being greener, cleaner, quieter and smarter, the A380 is already setting new standards for transport and the environment. The aircraft is the most fuel efficient aircraft flying today. The combination of extra passenger capacity without increasing the number of flights, excellent environmental performance and lower operating costs is an ideal solution for the airports and the airlines that serve them.

For passengers, the A380 offers wider, more comfortable seats in all classes and the quietest cabins in the sky. Its unique double-deck wide body architecture also gives airlines flexibility to economically offer improved comfort standards without reducing fleet capacity. To current standards for larger premium class products, the A380 can typically carry 525 passengers in three classes in unprecedented comfort on flights of over 8000 nm (15 000km).

British Airways first became an Airbus operator in 1988, when it began flying A320s. The airline added the A319s to its fleet in 1999 and the A321 in 2004. British Airways currently operate a total of 68 A320 family aircraft.

ryanCX · Post by **ryanCX** » 28 Sep 2007, 20:14

fierce cheeks here lol

First of all, very pleased with the orders although i was expecting a slightly bigger order for A380. With over 50 B744s surely more will be ordered if indeed the A380 is to replace the 744s. Again, i also have to point out like others have, that A380, because of its size does suit slot constraint heathrow environment. The 787s orders again, i didn't expect to come to soon but it does give BA the option to fly transatlantic out of other european cities in the future and also would replace the old 767s perfectly.
The comment about the A380 order being bearing of orders to come from other airlines is somehow baseless. Airlines, if they're smart anyway would look into their own business model, requirments and aims before placing an order. That said, no project can be down-talked at the moment. Eventhough time is running out on A380, Airbus have reasons to be optimistic about profitabilty of the A380 project. As for 747-8, for a development of existing products, over 90 orders and more to come possibly, I'd say its a good result.
Now though, the question about BA fleet probably is how will they fill the difference between A380 and 787. 777-300ER probably isn't the right way to go. Their current 777s are new enough and can wait for the A350s or 787-10s if it does come out

CXRules · Post by **CXRules** » 28 Sep 2007, 21:31

BA's follow-up order expected to be placed in 2008-09 time frame for replacing the remaining B744s

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... 08-09.html

A side note, BA's relocationg to T5 @ LHR is only 6 months away!

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ondon.html

I think the CX case is different than BA as HKG doesn't have the slots constrain like LHR; thus, it may not be as economically sound for CX to go with A380. It looks to me that B773ER is the partial replacement of B744 for CX in the time being.

RC20 · Post by **RC20** » 29 Sep 2007, 02:27

CX wrote:Well, BA was the airline that everyone thought would favour the 748I and they did not get it... you might say it's 'logical' that they got the A380 because they did, but it shows the 748I isn't that competitive. just admit it RC20.. i think 748I orders will come, but certainly won't be in big numbers anymore, 748F may continue to sell well though.

btw, don't call anyone a jerk juz because they dont' like a plane by Boeing please.

I think we have different views on what you mean by competitive and even successful.

Yes, the A380-800 is more efficient if it is flying 550 people and the 747-8I is flying 475 people (not by a lot because it has the heavier airframe to account for the stretch, but all reports say some).

However, if you have a route that has need to fly 425 passengers each trip each way, which is more competitive? The 747 or course. Overall both programs were supposed to sell pax and freighters. The A380 has lost those F sales, and the 747-8 has 20 pax (and probably will pick up more). I would contend as a program, the 747-8 is competitive.

I am not an expert on routes, but it looked to me that some of BAs routes were suited more to the A380. I am also sure that Airbus is both desperate to sell A380s at almost any price, and BA used the 747 card to get those at a really killer price. For them it works out. How well it works out for Airbus is open to dispute, but it does not look good, 8 years into the program and you are still 300+ sales away from break even.

Lufthansa feels that they need an option in between the 777/A340 and the A380. They thought that the 747-8 was more suited for some of their routes (competitive).

The A380 works on some, the 747-8 on others.

On Dixon:
Yes I think he is a jerk. He is revering to nasty name calling. If he doesn't like a Boeing offering, fine, say that, if he doesn't like the technology say that. Both Airbus and Boeing try to get as much return (derivatives) out of their airframes as they can. Otherwise, there would be no airframe period. You can’t build an aircraft just for one small 12 million person market, which is what he wants. It was a crapy underserved remark, toward Boeing or Airbus (by implication that was what he was calling Airbus offering in the various iterations of the A330/A350)
I think he is trying to divert attention from his own culpability in trying to sell Qantas down he drain (an airline that already is having a completive struggle to stay profitable being bought out by outside investors who want a profit is selling your airline down the drain).
I would even go so far as to call him a greedy jerk, as he was gong to head the operation as part of the deal (though now you see all sorts of denials that he had anything to do with it).

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 29 Sep 2007, 23:18

achace wrote:I guess champagne in both camps today, but some hard questions on the future of the 748I.

Dixon of QANTAS gave that one the kiss of death!

We were all a bit out on the size of the order, obviously something to follow.

IMO they will order the XWB-10.

The new thrust requirements just announced may have caused a delay while Airbus sort out new guarantees.

Cheers
Achace

Certainly, BA's not ordering the 747-8i is a disappointment for Boeing, but I still think the plane has a future. It is squarely placed between the 777-300 and A380 sized plane.

There is a future for both (747-8i and 380). Both are limited demand, niche aircraft, with definate applications. Originally, airlines bought the 747 for its long range ability, not it's capacity (if you needed 7,000+ mile range, the 747 ws the only way to go). Now 7,000+ range planes are commonplace.

CX · Post by CX » 30 Sep 2007, 08:45

smokejumper wrote:
achace wrote:I guess champagne in both camps today, but some hard questions on the future of the 748I.

Dixon of QANTAS gave that one the kiss of death!

We were all a bit out on the size of the order, obviously something to follow.

IMO they will order the XWB-10.

The new thrust requirements just announced may have caused a delay while Airbus sort out new guarantees.

Cheers
Achace
Certainly, BA's not ordering the 747-8i is a disappointment for Boeing, but I still think the plane has a future. It is squarely placed between the 777-300 and A380 sized plane.

There is a future for both (747-8i and 380). Both are limited demand, niche aircraft, with definate applications. Originally, airlines bought the 747 for its long range ability, not it's capacity (if you needed 7,000+ mile range, the 747 ws the only way to go). Now 7,000+ range planes are commonplace.

Yes i agree on that, but the niche for 748I imo is lesser than A380.. keep in mind the A388 on itself can be a 460 seater to as much as 800.. The 748I kinda overlaps both the 773ER and A388 with only a very small segment in which it is unique in.. and when there are airlines happy to put 460 seats into an A380, why should they get 748I? Or if all you need is about 400 seats, why not go to the much more efficient 773ER? Furthermore the 748i must be the final iteration of the 747, while there should be 3 more models (-F,-900,-800R) of A380s on the cards. 748F will be dominating the cargo facilities though, 748I will find customers, not in too great numbers or will not match A388 orders i suppose.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 30 Sep 2007, 09:43

Well, you seem to forget that he B748I can land at many normal airports that do not have A380 modifications and for this are more flexible.

But let's face it:
the XWB will be able to land at many airports the B748 can't land on and that while burning less than half the fuel but carrying 20% less pax.
Maintencace costs will also be way lower.

teach · Post by **teach** » 30 Sep 2007, 10:53

Well, you seem to forget that he B748I can land at many normal airports that do not have A380 modifications and for this are more flexible.

Not true. Several of the A380 modifications will also be needed for the 748. Remember the 748 is NOT a 744: it is wider, heavier, and longer. It's longer than the A380 even. It's a myth that airports will not need to make any adjustments for the748.

achace · Post by **achace** » 30 Sep 2007, 10:55

Well the A380 is visiting us here in Manila in a couple of weeks time.
Will be interesting to see what facilities it can use.

I am sure it can use existing airbridges. Just wont have the upper deck access and catering.

Cheers

Achace

CX · Post by CX » 30 Sep 2007, 12:51

teach wrote:
Well, you seem to forget that he B748I can land at many normal airports that do not have A380 modifications and for this are more flexible.
Not true. Several of the A380 modifications will also be needed for the 748. Remember the 748 is NOT a 744: it is wider, heavier, and longer. It's longer than the A380 even. It's a myth that airports will not need to make any adjustments for the748.

Its width does not require modifications right? As for length, it is still shorter than the A346 right?
And it's not about the matter of 748I vs XWB, it's 748I vs XWB/773..
I would place my bet that they won't get 748Is, would be better going for more A380s and have commanality and then go with either XWB/773 for the rest of the replacement for less dense routes.

David747 · Post by **David747** » 30 Sep 2007, 14:10

748I, will continue with the original cross section, but the plane will be bigger in terms of length. Teach is right about the 748I being a new plane, but the 748I will have access to most airports, even with the program going through new FAA certification and European Certification.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 30 Sep 2007, 17:31

More A380's would be nice but where to?

Remember they need wider and stronger runways and taxiways, specially equipped terminals,... The B748 can fit in any terminal a B744 can fit in.

More than 20 A380's just wouldn't fit BA because they don't have the routes to fly them on.

The A380 routes are Australia, US west coast and Asia East coast, but that's about it.

If they needed more, they would have taken more options anyway.

TexasGuy · Post by **TexasGuy** » 01 Oct 2007, 03:39

I think BA still may purchase some 747-8I's.
As mentioned here before, there are many routes they currently fly which will not be suitable for the A380. I wonder if we will see A380 at IAH in BA colors?

;)

A350XWB · Post by **A350XWB** » 01 Oct 2007, 12:05

Airbus relieved as British Airways orders A380s

director Robert Boyle of British Airways

The A380 eventually won the day despite Boeing's perceived advantage as the incumbent supplier, says Boyle. "Undoubtedly the A380 is a more complex aircraft for us to introduce than the 747-8 would have been, and a higher risk as it's a bigger aircraft."

But Boyle says that the "numbers" ultimately came out in favour of Airbus, while its noise performance was "also a significant factor for us in the context of Heathrow expansion, as the A380 is QC [Quota Count] 0.5 on arrival at Heathrow versus QC1 for the 747-8".

He adds that other factors working for the A380 were "the benefits of the slot efficiency of the bigger aircraft", and the fact that its larger cabin size provides "more flexibility to innovate".

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... a380s.html

"The A350-1000 wasn't sufficiently defined for us to be confident to order the aircraft," he says. "We also wanted more certainty about what Boeing's response will be."

While the A350-1000 is the main focus of the Airbus offering for the next campaign, it will also include the A350-900, says Boyle. From the Boeing stable, he expects candidates to range from "evolutions of the 777-300ER to something more radically new, as well as the 787-10

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... uage_tools

A350XWB · Post by **A350XWB** » 02 Oct 2007, 13:16

A350XWB wrote:Airbus relieved as British Airways orders A380s

director Robert Boyle of British Airways

The A380 eventually won the day despite Boeing's perceived advantage as the incumbent supplier, says Boyle. "Undoubtedly the A380 is a more complex aircraft for us to introduce than the 747-8 would have been, and a higher risk as it's a bigger aircraft."

But Boyle says that the "numbers" ultimately came out in favour of Airbus, while its noise performance was "also a significant factor for us in the context of Heathrow expansion, as the A380 is QC [Quota Count] 0.5 on arrival at Heathrow versus QC1 for the 747-8".

He adds that other factors working for the A380 were "the benefits of the slot efficiency of the bigger aircraft", and the fact that its larger cabin size provides "more flexibility to innovate".

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... a380s.html

"The A350-1000 wasn't sufficiently defined for us to be confident to order the aircraft," he says. "We also wanted more certainty about what Boeing's response will be."

While the A350-1000 is the main focus of the Airbus offering for the next campaign, it will also include the A350-900, says Boyle. From the Boeing stable, he expects candidates to range from "evolutions of the 777-300ER to something more radically new, as well as the 787-10

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... uage_tools

BA require evolution of 77W and ...A350-1000.... absence of clear definition...

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 02 Oct 2007, 13:52

Ok here's the confirmation that BA don't want the B748I:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -come.html

No mention of the B748I.

It would be interesting to see whether Boeing will come up with an upgraded Triple-7

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 02 Oct 2007, 14:19

Indeed good news for the "whale jet".

But I still believe that the A380 program will only break through the day they decide to go for a combi version featuring a cargo dedicated lower deck and a pax dedicated upper deck.

I know there is a substantial demand for that type of offer, mixing the cargo capacity of a whole A330Freighter with the pax capacity of a stretched version B757 in a single frame.

I can't believe they would not develop this kind of product some day soon.

Best regards
Christophe

CX · Post by CX » 02 Oct 2007, 14:59

Eager to see what Boeing can do to the 777, i really doubt they will build something new with such a healthy orders.. the most may probably be slightly improved aerodynamics and new engines, and a little stretch will push it nearer 400 seats in standard 3 class.

A380 combi version? I thought of that before actually, they can use the lower deck for freight and upper deck for passengers, turning it into a about 2x A330s but then are the cargo suppose to board the aircraft first or passsengers?

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 02 Oct 2007, 15:05

The cargo would be boarded first I suppose