Hello to all spotters!
I come from Slovenia (LJPZ) and contrail-spotting is also considered part of my hobbies. I also hope that some time I would be able to make some good photos... However, I haven't found much information about this topic, plus my knowledge of good spotting equipments, especially cameras is limited, so I decided first to ask a few questions here.
I use mostly my 12x 50 binocular, only for watching . Recently, however, I have tried to make some photos with my Sony DSC-40 Cybershot, but the results were more or less blurry... My first question is-is my equipment (camera)"any good"? Shortly I am getting also my first scope - a Skywatcher 102/1000, with 40x/100/166x magnification - would it be any good also for contrail spotting? What equipment do you / other spotters use?
Any advice will be appreciated
Clear skies!
Advice on equipment (how to start?)
Moderator: Plane spotting team
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new_spotter
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 18:19
- Location: Slovenia
Hi Slovenian guy,
I guess a Sony Cybershot is not good equipment for contrail spotting purpose. Best is to use a DSLR (like the D series of Canon or Nikon) with a telelens of at least 400 mm.
My first contrail pictures were taken with the famous Bigma 50-500 mm lens of Sigma. Price is not cheap, around 1000 Euro. But the lens is very sharp, and has universal use (50 mm for landscapes, up to 500 mm for the far distant objects).
Full 500 mm on wide bodies gave already some satisfying results.
When going further in this hobby, you may alternative consider buying a telecope, the reflectors with focal length of around 1000 are a very good start and are also much cheaper than a lens.
I use an 8 Inch Skywatcher telecope with focal lengts of 1200 mm. I put my digi cam (a Canon 300D) directly into the eyepiece holder without the eyepiece itself. An additional T-ring between cam and scope is necessary (this is different for each camera and costs around 25 Euros). The pics self are made with mode M (manual), I try to shoot with shutterspeeds between 1/800-1/2000. So when light circumstances deteriorate, I switch to an higer ISO. Normally I use 100, but this may go up to towards the evening 400. When sunshine is nice on the fuselage. I underexpose these shots with a couple of stops. When the sun is at a bad angle, I overexpose these shots a couple of stops.
Results: you can read off titles and sometimes also registrations and see the windows, so quite exiting.
Above picture with crop factor of my cam give images like with a focal length of around 1900 mm. When the telescope is used together with a Barlow lens of x2 or x3, even higer focal lengths (of 3800 or 5700 mm) are possible on pictures, but I haven't tried this out yet. One thing to remember: the higher the magnification, the more abberation effects due to the atmosphere or your own shaking on the telescope.
More info wanted? Just ask.
Regards, S
I guess a Sony Cybershot is not good equipment for contrail spotting purpose. Best is to use a DSLR (like the D series of Canon or Nikon) with a telelens of at least 400 mm.
My first contrail pictures were taken with the famous Bigma 50-500 mm lens of Sigma. Price is not cheap, around 1000 Euro. But the lens is very sharp, and has universal use (50 mm for landscapes, up to 500 mm for the far distant objects).
Full 500 mm on wide bodies gave already some satisfying results.
When going further in this hobby, you may alternative consider buying a telecope, the reflectors with focal length of around 1000 are a very good start and are also much cheaper than a lens.
I use an 8 Inch Skywatcher telecope with focal lengts of 1200 mm. I put my digi cam (a Canon 300D) directly into the eyepiece holder without the eyepiece itself. An additional T-ring between cam and scope is necessary (this is different for each camera and costs around 25 Euros). The pics self are made with mode M (manual), I try to shoot with shutterspeeds between 1/800-1/2000. So when light circumstances deteriorate, I switch to an higer ISO. Normally I use 100, but this may go up to towards the evening 400. When sunshine is nice on the fuselage. I underexpose these shots with a couple of stops. When the sun is at a bad angle, I overexpose these shots a couple of stops.
Results: you can read off titles and sometimes also registrations and see the windows, so quite exiting.
Above picture with crop factor of my cam give images like with a focal length of around 1900 mm. When the telescope is used together with a Barlow lens of x2 or x3, even higer focal lengths (of 3800 or 5700 mm) are possible on pictures, but I haven't tried this out yet. One thing to remember: the higher the magnification, the more abberation effects due to the atmosphere or your own shaking on the telescope.
More info wanted? Just ask.
Regards, S
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new_spotter
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 18:19
- Location: Slovenia
Hi, Skystef,
thanks for helpful reply. Your pictures speak for themselves, great work
My second set of questions... since you are using a telescope-do you have any trouble following the aircraft? Also, what type of mount do you have (equatorial...)? And If I have understood you right - eyepieces don't matter, you just put the camera into the holder?
The telescope I am getting is meant to be used primarily for astronomy, however the spotting mania has just reached a new level for me, seeing those photos... As I have mentioned, it is the 4 inch Skywatcher refractor with 1000 focal length, on EQ-3 mount. I hope it would be a decent scope...
Regards,
Aleš - new_spotter
thanks for helpful reply. Your pictures speak for themselves, great work
My second set of questions...
since you are using a telescope-do you have any trouble following the aircraft? Also, what type of mount do you have (equatorial...)? And If I have understood you right - eyepieces don't matter, you just put the camera into the holder?The telescope I am getting is meant to be used primarily for astronomy, however the spotting mania has just reached a new level for me, seeing those photos... As I have mentioned, it is the 4 inch Skywatcher refractor with 1000 focal length, on EQ-3 mount. I hope it would be a decent scope...
Regards,
Aleš - new_spotter
OK, some bad luck: due to a server switch all messages of Thursday afternoon (12/04) are gone.
So here is a new attempt,
@ Ales
- I use an azimuthal (Dobsonian style) mount.
- cam via T-ring straight into the holder, so no eyepieces needed.
- to get contrailing aircraft in your telescope, always use the viewfinder first, then switch to scope and follow the trail to the plane. First time quite difficult, but after some hours of practise, this all works smooth. Zenith shots are still hard to follow: fast moving aircraft + the fact that you are positioned at the bottom of your scope. But these belly shots become after a while boring, so a certain angle between you and airplane is preferable and these are also easier to follow.
- I bought a light strong scope to get high shutter speeds which are also sufficient (via slightly higher iso) during the twillight. So the 1200 : 200 give an F ratio of 6. Your scope has F ratio of 10, so less light comes in. During the daylight it should be enough to get the high shutter speeds needed. During twillight it will be harder to take sharp pictures, you can play with higher iso values, but above iso 400 images are rather grainy.
@ SilverJET
Your message is also gone, but I thought you asked what sort of images your scope could produce and where I bought a T-ring.
1) Images will be similar of those like taken with a Bigma @ 500 mm, so the first picture above give an idea.
2) I bought the T-ring @ http://www.grootven.be/
Regards, S
So here is a new attempt,
@ Ales
- I use an azimuthal (Dobsonian style) mount.
- cam via T-ring straight into the holder, so no eyepieces needed.
- to get contrailing aircraft in your telescope, always use the viewfinder first, then switch to scope and follow the trail to the plane. First time quite difficult, but after some hours of practise, this all works smooth. Zenith shots are still hard to follow: fast moving aircraft + the fact that you are positioned at the bottom of your scope. But these belly shots become after a while boring, so a certain angle between you and airplane is preferable and these are also easier to follow.
- I bought a light strong scope to get high shutter speeds which are also sufficient (via slightly higher iso) during the twillight. So the 1200 : 200 give an F ratio of 6. Your scope has F ratio of 10, so less light comes in. During the daylight it should be enough to get the high shutter speeds needed. During twillight it will be harder to take sharp pictures, you can play with higher iso values, but above iso 400 images are rather grainy.
@ SilverJET
Your message is also gone, but I thought you asked what sort of images your scope could produce and where I bought a T-ring.
1) Images will be similar of those like taken with a Bigma @ 500 mm, so the first picture above give an idea.
2) I bought the T-ring @ http://www.grootven.be/
Regards, S
Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
Hi to you all
i come from southeast england and i have just starting contrail-spotting.i have been watching/photography aircraft since 1972 at LHR/LGW and can remerber the queens building open at LHR+BOAC boeing 707s and the VC-10s.
i have been using a 500mm lens (f8)with a canon eos rebel xt camera with poor results(dark/blurring)so
i am buying the following scope---see link
http://www.telescopehouse.com/acatalog/ ... 05_02.html
please can you tell me the pros and cons as regards the above scope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
hope to have some pictures in a few weeks.
does any member know how to master photoshop??????????
all the best
DC10MD11
i come from southeast england and i have just starting contrail-spotting.i have been watching/photography aircraft since 1972 at LHR/LGW and can remerber the queens building open at LHR+BOAC boeing 707s and the VC-10s.
i have been using a 500mm lens (f8)with a canon eos rebel xt camera with poor results(dark/blurring)so
i am buying the following scope---see link
http://www.telescopehouse.com/acatalog/ ... 05_02.html
please can you tell me the pros and cons as regards the above scope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
hope to have some pictures in a few weeks.
does any member know how to master photoshop??????????
all the best
DC10MD11
Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
Hi DC10MD11,
I have no experience with LightBridge 8" Dobsonian, but the ones I have with the classic Dobsion 8" or 10" 1200 mm focal lenght are quite good. It is all explained on my site at http://www.skystef.be/scope-setup.htm and pictures of contrailing airplanes to be found http://www.skystef.be/contrail.htm
We used to have a huge thread on this forum about the use different scopes and all their (dis)advantages. Sadly it all disappeared in our cyberworld dreams due to server crash. Below I could recover some fragments this thread.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:27 pm
Hi,
I guess you know me, I own a Synta Skywatcher of 1200 mm on a Dobson mount.
More info + some tricks/hints how to make good pictures with this scope via http://www.skystef.be/contrail.htm
Skystef.be
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:42 pm
sure i know you skystef! I just was thinking to upgrade my scope for next summer spotting thank you for the advice
more photos on http://ilpavone2004.deviantart.com/
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by contrailwatcherUK on Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:16 pm
Hi,
Im also thinking about upgrading soon. Maybe 10" or 12" Dobsonian, or if im patient enough a 10" Newtonian
Does anyone know much about schmidt cassegrain telescopes for contrailspotting?
Thanks,
James.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:23 pm
contrailwatcherUK wrote:
Im also thinking about upgrading soon. Maybe 10" or 12" Dobsonian, or if im patient enough a 10" Newtonian
Does anyone know much about schmidt cassegrain telescopes for contrailspotting?
Have no clue about the possibilities with a Cassegrain scope.
But James, permit me to ask, why do you want to upgrade your equipment, I suppose you're "6 Incher" ain't that old.
I see only one disadvantage, the Dobson mount does not permit the use of a motor drive for deep sky night photography. But for pure daylight purpose, such mount is OK. It doesn't matter a lot which diameter the scope has as the shutter speed does not vary that much, you can always play with ISO values of the cam. Also the difference between a 1200 mm (8 & 10") scope or 1500 mm (12") scope doesn't produce a significant larger magnification.
I have tried 8, 10 & 12" Dobsians, the larger the diameter the more light comes in and the more viewfield you have for watching (with an oculair). But for photography, the viewfield just remains the same.
Your opinion?
Skystef.be
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:22 am
Sorry James, by mistake I've deleted your last post.
Your message said "I'm experiencing too low shutterspeeds, giving rejections of pictures".
Now blurry pictures seem to be part of the hobby, rate will never be a 100% , that's for sure. But with a shutter speed of 1/400 sec and up sharp pictures are theoreticly possible.
But not only the shutter speed is reason for frustrating results. Having gained some experience with my reflector, I see two major problems:
-number one are undoubtly atmospheric distortions, there is nothing you can do about.
-number two are thermal currents inside the scope. I see two reasons why these can occur: a different temperature of the prime mirror or of the tube, against the environmental temperature. When doing a session outside, mirror is mostly warmer due to storage inside the house, so you have to wait and this could take up more than an hour (for example when T outside is 5°C and inside 15°C). Beside waiting, I see only one solution: a fan could help to shorten the cool down period. Preferable the fan should even be placed inside the scope and this just above the mirror, because there is very often a very thin warm layer just above the prime mirror. This kind of distortion gives pictures if they were taken through water.
Having said this all, lets focus on the pros and contras of your equipment.
My equipment is Dobsonian reflector scope:
pro:
- a big scope for a cheap price. As the F ratio is quite low, combi with convertors can produce very strong magnifications which are still usable for photography.
- optic elements are really OK, no image/color shifts are found.
- easy handling, fast pin pointing to an object (or so called star hopping).
contra:
- sometimes a very long cool down period of prime mirror (giving problems that have discussed above).
- when using a convertor, the pictures have a faint bright spot in the middle, this due to the construction of the scope (the spider vain holding the small mirror both are obstructing the view).
- no motor drive possible for deep sky night photography.
- weight is 26-32 kg.
ilpavone2004 wrote:
I own a Skywatcher Maksutov MC127 for contrail spotting but i think it's not really the best for doing this kind of use! What kind of telescope do you own and which one is for you the best for contrail spotting?
What are the experiences with a Maksutov-Cassegrain?
Skystef.be
Skystef
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:05 pm
with a maksutov-cassegrain the experiences are that you have to set a high iso value (around 800-1600) during the day to take photos at 1/400, 1/640 and so you have a great noise in the photo! I don't think that scope is built to do uch things...i prefer a newtonian for contrail spotting. A maksutov is pretty good for moon and planets!
that's all
regards,
mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:45 pm
Well I was also offered to buy an MC telescope for reasons of light weight and high magnifications. But when I noticed the F ratio was above 12, I though it could have a rather poor performance with daylight photography, hence a too low shutterspeed. I never tried, but your story seems to tell I was right in buying a light strong scope with an F ratio not more than 6. The people of scope storeS always tell you that Cassegrains types are also for terrestrial use, the Newtons not, this because of upside down images. Now this can be easy corrected with a special oculair (not that expensive), or when photographing it doesn't matter at all. In my case I photograph with shutter speeds 1/400-1/1000 sec with an ISO between 200-400.
Checking James story, Schmidt-Cassegrain scopes have also an F ratio of 10. The focal length might go up to 3000 mm or more, but when using such high magnifications this could also pose a problem for obtaining adequate sharp pictures versus shutter speed. With speeds below 1/400 sec, you simply can forget making sharp images.
I guess a Newton style scope is the best option, on Dobson mount is OK if only interested in daylight photography or nighttime watching.
Skystef.be
Skystef
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:31 pm
I think also that newtonian telescopes have got a problem: they're all open and dust can enter inside. This is not really dangerous for people who just watch with a newtonian but for people taking pictures this could be a big problem. I've talked with a friend that works in a observatory and he said to me that there are telescope that are built like newtonian but they're closed; they're called schmidt-newtonian and you don't even have to collimate it becaue the primary mirror is sferical! I'm really think about buying one of it. They're a bit more expensive but at least you can remove the dust when it's on the first lens.
What about you, skystef, you own a skywatcher 1200mm but which diameter? 6''?8''?10''? and if i may ask, is there a big difference between a 8'' and a 10''?
Kind regards,
Mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by contrailwatcherUK on Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:39 pm
What about this beast?
http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/tele ... index.html
James.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:17 pm
contrailwatcherUK wrote:
What about this beast?
http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/tele ... index.html
And what about the price
ilpavone2004What about you, skystef, you own a skywatcher 1200mm but which diameter? 6''?8''?10''? and if i may ask, is there a big difference between a 8'' and a 10''?
Purely for photographic purpose, the only difference is the F-ratio: an 8" gives F=6, a 10" gives F=4,7. With a lower F ratio you obtain high shutter speeds, so you can make still some acceptable photographs under poor light situations, but don't expect miracles. Currently I use the 8" scope for photography without barlow lens or watching only, and use 10" to make photograps with a barlow 2x converter.
ilpavone
I think also that newtonian telescopes have got a problem: they're all open and dust can enter inside. This is not really dangerous for people who just watch with a newtonian but for people taking pictures this could be a big problem. I've talked with a friend that works in a observatory and he said to me that there are telescope that are built like newtonian but they're closed; they're called schmidt-newtonian and you don't even have to collimate it becaue the primary mirror is sferical!
I guess you're referring to dust in the cam? I've mentionned this before: dust on itself can be removed from the sensor, but the free air with dust & humidity could pose ultimate a problem on the mecahnical elements inside. I'm not sure if it does or when it start to show. After 15000-20000 clicks a digi cam gets anyway "tired", especially the mirror is the weakest element. But indeed I too have thought about this problem and I solved it by using a barlow lens which remains attached on the scope, so there is no free air between my cam and scope. A Schmidt might be a solution to overcome this problem but I see three negative aspects: a very pricy instrument, an F ratio not lower dan 10 (shutter speed problem?), and finally sometimes a very very long cool down/warm up period of the prime mirror. Especially this latter effect is very frustrating, and I don't know if this proces can be fastened. With a Newton it can, just put a ventilator in it. And as surplus the eventual thermal currents inside the scope and/or small turbulent layer above the prime mirror disappears, giving crisp clear and blur free images on these very rare crisp clear days without atmospheric distortions.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:44 pm
Actually i ment that the newton is a open telescope, there's no lens between the mirror and the air so you could find some dust on the mirror. BTW schmidt-newtonian are not schmidt cassegrain. Their F-ratio is about 4-5 and they even don't need any collimation. The schmidt newtonian i'm thinking to buy is this one http://www.telescopes.com/telescopes/ca ... atings.cfm but if you're saying that there are no problem with the dobson that's almost a newton without an equatorial mount, i think i'll buy it! I was just thinking about dust in the scope, with the camera i think i'll have no problems because i'll take photos through an eyepiece
Kind regards,
Mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:54 pm
Ok M, everything I've told was about the Schmidt-Cassegrain, so put my comment aside.
The dust on the mirror of an open Newton can be removed, this is indeed a rather intense maintenance work, but on the other hand this is also not something to do every year.
The prices of Schimdt-Newton are acceptable, F ratio is good, no collimation, no thermal curents inside, about the cooling of prime mirror have no clue, but I suppose this could pose a problem when using one with a large diameter. Another thing to watch for is dew: when inside the tube this could pose a major problem. But perhaps most important are its optic performances. Here a review I found on the internet http://www.nightsky.at/Art/SN8/
The one you want to buy has 800 mm focal length, seems a bit too small, unless you want to work with converters.
Skystef.be
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:59 pm
Actually your advice will influence what i'll buy. If you say it's possible to remove the dust from the mirror i think i'll buy the newton, but if there are problems i think i'll buy the schmidt newtonian even if 800 mm is not really a big range. I'll let you know if i find something interesting on the net
regards,
Mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:54 pm
ilpavone2004 wrote:
If you say it's possible to remove the dust from the mirror i think i'll buy the newton, but if there are problems i think i'll buy the schmidt newtonian even if 800 mm is not really a big range. I'll let you know if i find something interesting on the net
Everything is possible, what about all the owners of an open Newton, just trow it away because of some dust?
So, found some answers on local astro forums of Belgium & Holland.
First of all: cleaning of dust is only needed if it gets "too worse". This could takes years if the scope is well protected from free air circulation during period of storage. A little dust doesn't matter as this has very little effect on quality of pictures.
If cleaning is really necessary here 3 procedures. First take out the prime mirror by loosen its 3 screws.
1. Put the back of the mirror on a soft underground, use a special aerosol dispenser to blow off dust, or use a special soft brush to whipe out the dust.
If no result:
2. Put the mirror in the kitchen sink (its underground resting on a towel), let water (of around 20°C) flow for a couple of minutes over it, afterwards flow destilated water over it, afterwards lay the back of the mirror on a dry towel, put a cover over the mirror (to protect from new dust hap during the dry period) and let it dry out.
If no result:
3.Put the mirror in the kitchens sink full of water (around 20°C) and put a few drops of a product to do the dishes in it. Wait for 10 minutes, afterwards use (a lot of) steril cotton-whool and clean without using pressure. Afterwards do the procedure as explained in number 2.
Afterwards put the mirror again in its usual position in the scope and collimate.
In most cases, number 1 or 2 give satisfying results.
Hope this helps.
Skystef.be
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:09 pm
Ok! Thank you really much skystef! As you're saying that there's no problem with dust, i think i'll buy the optics of the new scope for Easter and then the equatorial mount for the summer.
Kind Regards,
Mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by RATus on Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:24 am
can anyone tell me if this telescope is ok for contrail ( after reading all these posts i think it is ok, but hey, you are the experts )
http://www.optical-systems.com/skywatch ... anguage=gb
and can it be used with T-ring and adapter with a slr camera?
thxRATus
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:31 am
every telescope can be used with t-ring with the adaptor you need in case of problems. you don't have to be on trouble with this. btw i think it's a quite good scope but skystef knows better them so...we're waiting you advice skystef!
kind regards,
mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by 777-300ER on Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:01 am
Hi RATus,
The telescope you mentioned is exactly the same model I bought some two weeks ago. I am quite happy with it, have a look at my photos in the other thread.
Regards,
G.777-300ER
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by RATus on Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:31 pm
777-300ER wrote:
Hi RATus,
The telescope you mentioned is exactly the same model I bought some two weeks ago. I am quite happy with it, have a look at my photos in the other thread.
G.
I just now called and e-shop that i found here and told them that i wanted the Skywatcher dosbonian 200 / 1200 Pyrex and that i need the T adapter and Ring for Canon EOS to take contrail photos and after explaining to the guy what contrail photography is he told me that this scope is rather difficult to work with if used for photography and that it is very difficult to stay on target on the planes and he reccomends me to buy the same stuff but at 1000 mm because "i would get a better chance at targeting"...
so, this said, is he right? how difficult is using that scope? i mean near to impossible or something like that? and won't i loose a bit of details (if so , how much? ) if i use the 1000 mm ?
Bottom line.. should i listen to the guy?
I have no experience with LightBridge 8" Dobsonian, but the ones I have with the classic Dobsion 8" or 10" 1200 mm focal lenght are quite good. It is all explained on my site at http://www.skystef.be/scope-setup.htm and pictures of contrailing airplanes to be found http://www.skystef.be/contrail.htm
We used to have a huge thread on this forum about the use different scopes and all their (dis)advantages. Sadly it all disappeared in our cyberworld dreams due to server crash. Below I could recover some fragments this thread.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:27 pm
Hi,
I guess you know me, I own a Synta Skywatcher of 1200 mm on a Dobson mount.
More info + some tricks/hints how to make good pictures with this scope via http://www.skystef.be/contrail.htm
Skystef.be
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:42 pm
sure i know you skystef! I just was thinking to upgrade my scope for next summer spotting thank you for the advice
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by contrailwatcherUK on Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:16 pm
Hi,
Im also thinking about upgrading soon. Maybe 10" or 12" Dobsonian, or if im patient enough a 10" Newtonian
Does anyone know much about schmidt cassegrain telescopes for contrailspotting?
Thanks,
James.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:23 pm
contrailwatcherUK wrote:
Im also thinking about upgrading soon. Maybe 10" or 12" Dobsonian, or if im patient enough a 10" Newtonian
Does anyone know much about schmidt cassegrain telescopes for contrailspotting?
Have no clue about the possibilities with a Cassegrain scope.
But James, permit me to ask, why do you want to upgrade your equipment, I suppose you're "6 Incher" ain't that old.
I see only one disadvantage, the Dobson mount does not permit the use of a motor drive for deep sky night photography. But for pure daylight purpose, such mount is OK. It doesn't matter a lot which diameter the scope has as the shutter speed does not vary that much, you can always play with ISO values of the cam. Also the difference between a 1200 mm (8 & 10") scope or 1500 mm (12") scope doesn't produce a significant larger magnification.
I have tried 8, 10 & 12" Dobsians, the larger the diameter the more light comes in and the more viewfield you have for watching (with an oculair). But for photography, the viewfield just remains the same.
Your opinion?
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:22 am
Sorry James, by mistake I've deleted your last post.
Your message said "I'm experiencing too low shutterspeeds, giving rejections of pictures".
Now blurry pictures seem to be part of the hobby, rate will never be a 100% , that's for sure. But with a shutter speed of 1/400 sec and up sharp pictures are theoreticly possible.
But not only the shutter speed is reason for frustrating results. Having gained some experience with my reflector, I see two major problems:
-number one are undoubtly atmospheric distortions, there is nothing you can do about.
-number two are thermal currents inside the scope. I see two reasons why these can occur: a different temperature of the prime mirror or of the tube, against the environmental temperature. When doing a session outside, mirror is mostly warmer due to storage inside the house, so you have to wait and this could take up more than an hour (for example when T outside is 5°C and inside 15°C). Beside waiting, I see only one solution: a fan could help to shorten the cool down period. Preferable the fan should even be placed inside the scope and this just above the mirror, because there is very often a very thin warm layer just above the prime mirror. This kind of distortion gives pictures if they were taken through water.
Having said this all, lets focus on the pros and contras of your equipment.
My equipment is Dobsonian reflector scope:
pro:
- a big scope for a cheap price. As the F ratio is quite low, combi with convertors can produce very strong magnifications which are still usable for photography.
- optic elements are really OK, no image/color shifts are found.
- easy handling, fast pin pointing to an object (or so called star hopping).
contra:
- sometimes a very long cool down period of prime mirror (giving problems that have discussed above).
- when using a convertor, the pictures have a faint bright spot in the middle, this due to the construction of the scope (the spider vain holding the small mirror both are obstructing the view).
- no motor drive possible for deep sky night photography.
- weight is 26-32 kg.
ilpavone2004 wrote:
I own a Skywatcher Maksutov MC127 for contrail spotting but i think it's not really the best for doing this kind of use! What kind of telescope do you own and which one is for you the best for contrail spotting?
What are the experiences with a Maksutov-Cassegrain?
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:05 pm
with a maksutov-cassegrain the experiences are that you have to set a high iso value (around 800-1600) during the day to take photos at 1/400, 1/640 and so you have a great noise in the photo! I don't think that scope is built to do uch things...i prefer a newtonian for contrail spotting. A maksutov is pretty good for moon and planets!
that's all
regards,
mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:45 pm
Well I was also offered to buy an MC telescope for reasons of light weight and high magnifications. But when I noticed the F ratio was above 12, I though it could have a rather poor performance with daylight photography, hence a too low shutterspeed. I never tried, but your story seems to tell I was right in buying a light strong scope with an F ratio not more than 6. The people of scope storeS always tell you that Cassegrains types are also for terrestrial use, the Newtons not, this because of upside down images. Now this can be easy corrected with a special oculair (not that expensive), or when photographing it doesn't matter at all. In my case I photograph with shutter speeds 1/400-1/1000 sec with an ISO between 200-400.
Checking James story, Schmidt-Cassegrain scopes have also an F ratio of 10. The focal length might go up to 3000 mm or more, but when using such high magnifications this could also pose a problem for obtaining adequate sharp pictures versus shutter speed. With speeds below 1/400 sec, you simply can forget making sharp images.
I guess a Newton style scope is the best option, on Dobson mount is OK if only interested in daylight photography or nighttime watching.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:31 pm
I think also that newtonian telescopes have got a problem: they're all open and dust can enter inside. This is not really dangerous for people who just watch with a newtonian but for people taking pictures this could be a big problem. I've talked with a friend that works in a observatory and he said to me that there are telescope that are built like newtonian but they're closed; they're called schmidt-newtonian and you don't even have to collimate it becaue the primary mirror is sferical! I'm really think about buying one of it. They're a bit more expensive but at least you can remove the dust when it's on the first lens.
What about you, skystef, you own a skywatcher 1200mm but which diameter? 6''?8''?10''? and if i may ask, is there a big difference between a 8'' and a 10''?
Kind regards,
Mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by contrailwatcherUK on Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:39 pm
What about this beast?
http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/tele ... index.html
James.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:17 pm
contrailwatcherUK wrote:
What about this beast?
http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/tele ... index.html
And what about the price
ilpavone2004What about you, skystef, you own a skywatcher 1200mm but which diameter? 6''?8''?10''? and if i may ask, is there a big difference between a 8'' and a 10''?
Purely for photographic purpose, the only difference is the F-ratio: an 8" gives F=6, a 10" gives F=4,7. With a lower F ratio you obtain high shutter speeds, so you can make still some acceptable photographs under poor light situations, but don't expect miracles. Currently I use the 8" scope for photography without barlow lens or watching only, and use 10" to make photograps with a barlow 2x converter.
ilpavone
I think also that newtonian telescopes have got a problem: they're all open and dust can enter inside. This is not really dangerous for people who just watch with a newtonian but for people taking pictures this could be a big problem. I've talked with a friend that works in a observatory and he said to me that there are telescope that are built like newtonian but they're closed; they're called schmidt-newtonian and you don't even have to collimate it becaue the primary mirror is sferical!
I guess you're referring to dust in the cam? I've mentionned this before: dust on itself can be removed from the sensor, but the free air with dust & humidity could pose ultimate a problem on the mecahnical elements inside. I'm not sure if it does or when it start to show. After 15000-20000 clicks a digi cam gets anyway "tired", especially the mirror is the weakest element. But indeed I too have thought about this problem and I solved it by using a barlow lens which remains attached on the scope, so there is no free air between my cam and scope. A Schmidt might be a solution to overcome this problem but I see three negative aspects: a very pricy instrument, an F ratio not lower dan 10 (shutter speed problem?), and finally sometimes a very very long cool down/warm up period of the prime mirror. Especially this latter effect is very frustrating, and I don't know if this proces can be fastened. With a Newton it can, just put a ventilator in it. And as surplus the eventual thermal currents inside the scope and/or small turbulent layer above the prime mirror disappears, giving crisp clear and blur free images on these very rare crisp clear days without atmospheric distortions.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:44 pm
Actually i ment that the newton is a open telescope, there's no lens between the mirror and the air so you could find some dust on the mirror. BTW schmidt-newtonian are not schmidt cassegrain. Their F-ratio is about 4-5 and they even don't need any collimation. The schmidt newtonian i'm thinking to buy is this one http://www.telescopes.com/telescopes/ca ... atings.cfm but if you're saying that there are no problem with the dobson that's almost a newton without an equatorial mount, i think i'll buy it! I was just thinking about dust in the scope, with the camera i think i'll have no problems because i'll take photos through an eyepiece
Kind regards,
Mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:54 pm
Ok M, everything I've told was about the Schmidt-Cassegrain, so put my comment aside.
The dust on the mirror of an open Newton can be removed, this is indeed a rather intense maintenance work, but on the other hand this is also not something to do every year.
The prices of Schimdt-Newton are acceptable, F ratio is good, no collimation, no thermal curents inside, about the cooling of prime mirror have no clue, but I suppose this could pose a problem when using one with a large diameter. Another thing to watch for is dew: when inside the tube this could pose a major problem. But perhaps most important are its optic performances. Here a review I found on the internet http://www.nightsky.at/Art/SN8/
The one you want to buy has 800 mm focal length, seems a bit too small, unless you want to work with converters.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:59 pm
Actually your advice will influence what i'll buy. If you say it's possible to remove the dust from the mirror i think i'll buy the newton, but if there are problems i think i'll buy the schmidt newtonian even if 800 mm is not really a big range. I'll let you know if i find something interesting on the net
regards,
Mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by Skystef on Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:54 pm
ilpavone2004 wrote:
If you say it's possible to remove the dust from the mirror i think i'll buy the newton, but if there are problems i think i'll buy the schmidt newtonian even if 800 mm is not really a big range. I'll let you know if i find something interesting on the net
Everything is possible, what about all the owners of an open Newton, just trow it away because of some dust?
So, found some answers on local astro forums of Belgium & Holland.
First of all: cleaning of dust is only needed if it gets "too worse". This could takes years if the scope is well protected from free air circulation during period of storage. A little dust doesn't matter as this has very little effect on quality of pictures.
If cleaning is really necessary here 3 procedures. First take out the prime mirror by loosen its 3 screws.
1. Put the back of the mirror on a soft underground, use a special aerosol dispenser to blow off dust, or use a special soft brush to whipe out the dust.
If no result:
2. Put the mirror in the kitchen sink (its underground resting on a towel), let water (of around 20°C) flow for a couple of minutes over it, afterwards flow destilated water over it, afterwards lay the back of the mirror on a dry towel, put a cover over the mirror (to protect from new dust hap during the dry period) and let it dry out.
If no result:
3.Put the mirror in the kitchens sink full of water (around 20°C) and put a few drops of a product to do the dishes in it. Wait for 10 minutes, afterwards use (a lot of) steril cotton-whool and clean without using pressure. Afterwards do the procedure as explained in number 2.
Afterwards put the mirror again in its usual position in the scope and collimate.
In most cases, number 1 or 2 give satisfying results.
Hope this helps.
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:09 pm
Ok! Thank you really much skystef! As you're saying that there's no problem with dust, i think i'll buy the optics of the new scope for Easter and then the equatorial mount for the summer.
Kind Regards,
Mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by RATus on Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:24 am
can anyone tell me if this telescope is ok for contrail ( after reading all these posts i think it is ok, but hey, you are the experts )
http://www.optical-systems.com/skywatch ... anguage=gb
and can it be used with T-ring and adapter with a slr camera?
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by ilpavone2004 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:31 am
every telescope can be used with t-ring with the adaptor you need in case of problems. you don't have to be on trouble with this. btw i think it's a quite good scope but skystef knows better them so...we're waiting you advice skystef!
kind regards,
mattia
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by 777-300ER on Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:01 am
Hi RATus,
The telescope you mentioned is exactly the same model I bought some two weeks ago. I am quite happy with it, have a look at my photos in the other thread.
Regards,
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Re: What kind of telescope is the best for contrail spotting?
by RATus on Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:31 pm
777-300ER wrote:
Hi RATus,
The telescope you mentioned is exactly the same model I bought some two weeks ago. I am quite happy with it, have a look at my photos in the other thread.
G.
I just now called and e-shop that i found here and told them that i wanted the Skywatcher dosbonian 200 / 1200 Pyrex and that i need the T adapter and Ring for Canon EOS to take contrail photos and after explaining to the guy what contrail photography is he told me that this scope is rather difficult to work with if used for photography and that it is very difficult to stay on target on the planes and he reccomends me to buy the same stuff but at 1000 mm because "i would get a better chance at targeting"...
so, this said, is he right? how difficult is using that scope? i mean near to impossible or something like that? and won't i loose a bit of details (if so , how much? ) if i use the 1000 mm ?
Bottom line.. should i listen to the guy?
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contrailwatcherUK
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Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
Hey DC10MD11,
I think you have made a good choice there, however I dont think anyone has ever tried out the lightbridge. It may prove to be a very good scope since it allows more light in than other scopes.
Skywatcher seems to be a more popular choice as it already comes with nearly all the fittings needed for photography.
I think you have made a good choice there, however I dont think anyone has ever tried out the lightbridge. It may prove to be a very good scope since it allows more light in than other scopes.
Skywatcher seems to be a more popular choice as it already comes with nearly all the fittings needed for photography.
Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
HIDC10MD11 wrote:Hi to you all
i come from southeast england and i have just starting contrail-spotting.i have been watching/photography aircraft since 1972 at LHR/LGW and can remerber the queens building open at LHR+BOAC boeing 707s and the VC-10s.
i have been using a 500mm lens (f8)with a canon eos rebel xt camera with poor results(dark/blurring)so
i am buying the following scope---see link
http://www.telescopehouse.com/acatalog/ ... 05_02.html
please can you tell me the pros and cons as regards the above scope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
hope to have some pictures in a few weeks.
does any member know how to master photoshop??????????
all the best
DC10MD11
i did not buy the lightbridge 8" scope--after reading the advice on equipment i have now got the 8" skywatcher on a dobson mount which i hope to have in about 10 days--i got the scope off e-bay-only 9 months old/was £339 new+£130 of equipment,i got the whole lot for£200-not bad.
hope to have some pictures soon...............keep the great pictures coming.
all the best
DC10MD11
Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
Excellent choice, you will have a lot of fun with this beast. Overhere you're kindly invated to share your masterpieces...DC10MD11 wrote: HI
i did not buy the lightbridge 8" scope--after reading the advice on equipment i have now got the 8" skywatcher on a dobson mount which i hope to have in about 10 days
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contrailwatcherUK
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Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
Good choice there.
What area of south-east england do you live?
Im in south england so i expect we will sometimes spot the same aircraft!
What area of south-east england do you live?
Im in south england so i expect we will sometimes spot the same aircraft!
Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
contrailwatcherUK wrote:Good choice there.
What area of south-east england do you live?
Im in south england so i expect we will sometimes spot the same aircraft!
Hi
i live in tonbridge in kent.
over tonbridge we get aircraft into/out of LHR---BA/AIR FRANCE/SWISS/RAM/KENYA AW/SAA/VIRGIN/QANTAS/AIR INDIA/JET AW/AUSTRIAN/BMI/AIR ALGERIE/CYPRUS/EGYPTAIR/EMIRATES/ETIHAD/GULFAIR/MALAYSIA/MEA/QATAR/SRI LANKAN/THAI/TURKISH/TURKISH/PIA/ELAL/AIR MALTA/KUWAIT AW/THAI/ALITALIA/IRAN AIR/BELLVIEW ETC,ETC,--aircraft going in to LHR route via biggin hill and aircaft out route via detling/dover all at low leval.
gatwick--- aircraft route in and out-------lots of BA/MONARCH/THOMAS COOK/LOTS OF EASYJET/EMIRATES/ETIHAD/A FEW US AIRLINES(MOST HAVE GONE TO LHR)+OTHERS.all aircraft at low leval.
contrails we have the following------midhurst/detling/dover(going east)=atlas air 747///lufthansa a340,747,md11///aer lingus a320///air india 777,747///omni dc-10,757///singapore 747///easyjet a320///ryanair 737///mac charters c17///malev 767///american 767///air canada a330/767///air berlin a330///world dc-10,md-11,747///pia 777//icelandair 757///fedex md-11///ups md-11///+ the chaters.^^^^^^^^^^^^^at times it can be very busy!!other times
1 aircraft every 20 mins.
+we have sandgate/detling/brookmens park(going north)-----swiss,alitalia,air france,austrain,united,etc+a lot of aircraft for manchester,leeds and scotland-------------------can see some of this traffic put not all due to the build up area.
+we have a lot of aircraft also on contrail going east to west-- going to midhurst---a lot of the aircraft are from germany going to the usa but they are about 4-7 miles away---might be o/k with my new scope??????.
+we have klm 747,md-11,a330///arfly 767///martinair md-11,767///arkefly 767(may be going to the netherlands antilles)///air berlin a330------they are about 3/4 miles away.
a lot of aircraft but at times can be very quiet in the winter(very few charters).
has any one got a map of the high leval routes for the southeast of england(kent)?????????.
should have my new scope on the 28th oct and then its just waiting for the right weather and then i wil try and master photoshop and then upload some pictures.
thats all for now.
all the best
DC10MD11
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contrailwatcherUK
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Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
I also see a lot of this but its usually backlit.DC10MD11 wrote: +we have klm 747,md-11,a330///arfly 767///martinair md-11,767///arkefly 767(may be going to the netherlands antilles)///air berlin a330------they are about 3/4 miles away.
I have the SBS-1 and can see nearly all of the aircraft that pass over me. Here is a screenshot I took once when it was really busy, unfortunately it was cloudy at this time
You can find a map with the upper air routes here: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/curre ... 2_1_en.pdf
Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
does any one know the upper air band frequencies for the southeast(kent) of england(ie sandgate deltling)(sandgate woodley)or where i could find them.
many thanks in advance
dc10md11
many thanks in advance
dc10md11
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Bushman787
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Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
Hi everyone!
My name is Sergey, I'm from Moscow, Russia.
I've got a problem of choice. I want to start doing contrail photography through a telescope but I need a portable one 'cause I'm going to travel around with it.
Here is what I found: http://www.sky-watcher.net/swtinc/produ ... class2=201
I would like to ask your advice if this thing is worth buying and if I will be able to get acceptable results with it.
If this thing is not good are there any better alternatives to it among portable scopes?
BTW, some contrail pictures made with Canon 70-300+2x Extender and Canon 100-400L+2x Extender are here: http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=607
Thank you very much!
My name is Sergey, I'm from Moscow, Russia.
I've got a problem of choice. I want to start doing contrail photography through a telescope but I need a portable one 'cause I'm going to travel around with it.
Here is what I found: http://www.sky-watcher.net/swtinc/produ ... class2=201
I would like to ask your advice if this thing is worth buying and if I will be able to get acceptable results with it.
If this thing is not good are there any better alternatives to it among portable scopes?
BTW, some contrail pictures made with Canon 70-300+2x Extender and Canon 100-400L+2x Extender are here: http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=607
Thank you very much!
Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
In Belgium, which is the best shop (price and "hulpvaardigheid van de verkoper") to buy a telescope? After some months of reading reviews I want to buy my own telescope, but don't know exactly where you have "waar voor uw geld".
The one I'm going to buy is the Skywatcher dobson 10"
Thanks.
The one I'm going to buy is the Skywatcher dobson 10"
Thanks.
Last edited by Benighted on 20 Apr 2009, 17:32, edited 1 time in total.
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ilpavone2004
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Re: Advice on equipment (how to start?)
Skystef your opinion is required 
BTW greetings from Italy...sorry if i don't post anymore but i got my pc flashed. i'll be back as soon as possible
Regards,
Mattia
BTW greetings from Italy...sorry if i don't post anymore but i got my pc flashed. i'll be back as soon as possible
Regards,
Mattia
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