Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

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Boavida
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida »

^^ Biggest nonsense I've read in a loooong time.

Europe = misery, hate, poverty,...
Russia invading another country = good
Belgium in 20 years = in ruins

Sure...

Btw, you're not Russian by any chance? :crazy:

Poeli
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Poeli »

I'd love to see Gripen's instead of F-18 or F-35. Canada has the same problem. A very interesting blog about this topic:
http://gripen4canada.blogspot.be/p/what ... ornet.html
Seems that in operational cost the Gripen is way cheaper than the other candidates (F-18/F35/Eurofighter/Rafale)
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flieger
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by flieger »

@boavida:
What struck me the most in Flanker2's whole monologue...
Belgium seems doomed, yes Belgium is going to waste, because they will not buy the PAK FA...
:shock: :shock:

Flanker2
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Flanker2 »

Well Flieger, Boavida, open your eyes.
Belgium is losing its entire industry piece by piece, because it doesn't have sustainable industries and its fiscal policy is not sustainable. In 20 years, when the Eastern European members start to reach the same pay level, when this generation of entrepreneurs retire and the last multinationals leave this country, there will be nothing left of Belgium but crumbling bricks, unless it changes course dramatically.
I don't see that happening no matter which politicians take office.

I'm not pro-Russian, but what is right is right. If you travel places you can see that the U.S. is as much a propaganda machine as Russia, if not better at it. In the meanwhile, in Europe we are working under communist regimes which benefit the lazy ones and demotivate the entrepreneurs, while trying to keep us dumb.

Boavida
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida »

^^ Flanker2, your doom scenario makes no sense. Your reasoning could be right if Western Europe would do nothing the coming 20 years, while Eastern Europe is moving forward. Ofcourse this is not going to happen. Western Europe, and Belgium, are constantly innovating their economies.

The EU just published the Innovation Scoreboard 2014. Belgium is doing really well and is just behind top performers in Scandinavia:
Image
(Full picture: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... eeda37.png)
(Source: http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/policies ... 014_en.pdf)

And btw, if the Eastern European countries reach the same pay level as the West, their prices will rise and they will have the exact same problem we face today (entrepreneurs moving to cheaper places...)

Now maybe back to the future fighter jets? ;)

flieger
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by flieger »

@flanker2
Do you read your own post before posting?
You say: "in 20y there will be nothing left of Belgium but crumbling bricks".
Same post you say this will be indeed in 20y, "when Eastern-Europe reaches the same pay levels as Western".

Well... didn't you just cancel out your own arguement? Moving to Eastern-Europe was EXACTLY, because labour is cheaper there.
So when they reach the same paylevel, that advantage is gone.
Does it sink in?

May'be it would be good to move back to an aviation dicussion btw too...

Boavida
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida »

According to HLN.be and De Tijd, Boeing is trying to sell the 'semi-stealth' F-18 Super Hornet to the Belgian Air Force:

Dutch: http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland ... 16-s.dhtml

Advanced Super Hornet:
Image
Image

Source: http://defense-update.com/20130830_semi ... ights.html

flieger
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by flieger »

Thanks Boavida...exactly what I predicted...

regi
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by regi »

NATO of no use to Belgium?
Belgium was a small country which behaved in a stubborn way by maintaining its neutrality position in 1914. Result was total devastation .
Our politicians didn't pay attention and in 1940 it was bingo again. Neutral but invaded.
Well, they learned their lesson and became a rather loyal partner.
Let us look at it from a different prospective: imagine that Belgium would be neutral. Meaning that this small nation would have to organise its defense completely by itself. Against all possible invaders by the way. We would have to build up an enormous organisation to ensure open seas. Antwerp would be closed for business in case of a conflict ( Antwerp was blocked by the Dutch in 1914 ) That means that Belgium would have to invest in deep sea capabilities. To keep the North Sea open. What a task ! The Germans couldn't do it, their navy was swiftly crippled in both last wars. So we would have to build...hold on, laughing allowed... multiple aircraft carriers. Satellites. Frigates, submarines , all kind of flying stuff, support ships, missile systems, marine brigades to secure bridge heads, nuclear capabilities, anti missile shields, STOP RIGHT THERE.
Belgium will show its loyalty at the last moment. Probably in a JSF program, or skipping ( partially) and go for unmanned aircraft + the transport wing.
But no Russian airplanes, no no.

flieger
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by flieger »

yes and while the whole world condemns Russia over their actions in the Crimea and becoming again more and more isolated from the Western world, and not just now for a "minor crisis" before some people would say that... Belgium would by Russian fighters. Belgium being a NATO FOUNDING MEMBER.... As if NATO would even be ok with it...
Indeed, they'll go for Western material. Biggest challenge will be to convince politicians that a purchase should be discussed now, as we are talking for years to come before introducing any new aircraft to the BAF.
So, every year this decision is shelved, the worse it gets.
Like I thought, Boeing is keen to pitch the FA18, which has some very good performance to offer, and is a stop gap solution between 2 generations. Boeing wants to keep their production run going, so a good deal could be possible...

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RoMax
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by RoMax »

flieger wrote:yes and while the whole world condemns Russia over their actions in the Crimea and becoming again more and more isolated from the Western world, and not just now for a "minor crisis" before some people would say that... Belgium would by Russian fighters. Belgium being a NATO FOUNDING MEMBER.... As if NATO would even be ok with it...
I can already imagine, the NATO celbrating the opening of their new headoffice with a fly-by of Russian fighter jets :mrgreen:

Boavida
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida »

In the meantime:
Defense Launches the Process of Replacing F-16
(Source: Belga news agency; published June 4, 2014)

(Issued in French and Dutch; unofficial translation by Defense-Aerospace.com)
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ocess.html

Belgium has kicked off the process to replace the F-16AM fighters it will retire from 2023 by issuing a RFI to the 5 government agencies in charge of the most likely candidates. (Wikipedia photo)
The Belgian Ministry of Defence recently sent a Request for Information (RFI) to five foreign government agencies, two of them American and three European, regarding the five combat aircraft that are the most likely candidates to replace the Belgian air force’s elderly F-16 fighters, several concordant sources said Wednesday.

The RFI, which does not commit to a future purchase nor to the selection of a specific aircraft, "aims to gather information" beyond the open-source data used for initial evaluation, several defense ministry sources said.

It nevertheless represents the first step in a - long - process that should lead to the acquisition of new fighter before the expected life of the F-16 from 2023, as long as the next Federal government agrees to their replacement.

The five state agencies to which the RFI was sent are:
-- Joint Program Office (JPO) in charge of the F-35 Lightning II program built by Lockheed Martin;
-- the Navy Integrated Program Office (NIPO) for the Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet;
-- the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA) of the French Ministry of Defence for the Dassault Rafale;
-- the Swedish Defence and Security Export Agency (FXM) for the Saab JAS-39 Saab; and
-- the UK Ministry of Defence for the Eurofighter consortium's eponymous fighter, a spokesman for the Defense ministry told the Belga agency.
The next federal government will probably (luckily) be without socialist and leftist parties (who oppose the F16 replacement, yes, they're that populist/stupid) so it's looking good for a replacement of the F16 fleet. Now it's only a question of what aircraft...

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sn26567
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 »

Just my own little opinion. The F-35 is too new, has got a lot of problems recently, and is exceeding its budget. The F-18 is reliable, has good reputation and record. The three European candidates lack international recognition. Hence my educated guess is for the F-18 (not the candidate of Air De Crem, but he will probably no longer be in charge of the Defence department).
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Established02
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Established02 »

What is it actually that we have learnt from the past few years of ongoing bank crisis, euro crisis, debt crisis ... ?

The current Belgian national debt is 383 billion EUR and increasing with 507 EUR per second as we speak.

That is 34.800 EUR debt per Belgian capita. This has dire consequences for today's society, but especially for future generations that will live in this counntry.

A replacement of the F16 may be very justifiied from a technical and operational viewpoint, but I would strongly suggest to first bring down our Belgian national debt to a much lower level, before going out on yet another shopping spray.

Purchasing expensive new military hardware should not put future generations under even more debt.

http://www.staatsschuldmeter.be/

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cathay belgium
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Indeed established02 ! Therefor we need must co- operate with the Netherlands, Belgium A400M and cargo... Transport and Holland Air Force, strike support F35 and Apache :)
Two countries as big as a pea !
even better : an united states of europe air force, only european built ! Eurofighter,rafale,a400,europcopter.....
:)
maybe not so sexy ide but rational the best,...
CXB
New types flown 2022.. A339

Boavida
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida »

Established02 wrote:(...)

Purchasing expensive new military hardware should not put future generations under even more debt.
With all due respect, but this is pretty shortsighted. Purchasing new aircraft will not put future generations under more debt. The purchase of military aircraft would actually be a gain for the Belgian economy. Belgium gained much more with the purchase of the F16's than that they ever costed. It would be a great boost to the Belgian aviation industry, as Belgian companies would be able to take part in the construction and maintenance of the new aircraft.

Apart from this, there's another reason to buy new fighter jets. Without them, there would no longer be a Belgian Air Force. The fighter jet capability is the only part of the military that has importance on an international level. The (ground) army and navy have suffered so many cut backs in the past, there's almost nothing left. So with the air force Belgium has still some importance and a voice on an international level. It's also important if we want to remain a reliable NATO partner (of which the headquarters is in Brussels...). Just look to Afghanistan, Lybia, etc.

Without fighter jets, there would no longer be a Belgian military and we would be the joke of Europe (and heavily criticized by other countries).

cathay belgium wrote:Hi,

Indeed established02 ! Therefor we need must co- operate with the Netherlands, Belgium A400M and cargo... Transport and Holland Air Force, strike support F35 and Apache :)
So Belgium the safe transport missions and Holland the more dangerous strike missions? Really? Every country has to take its responsibility on all levels. You can't expect other countries to take care of our own security. America already called upon Europe to invest more in its military in stead of (cowardly) relying on the sole US to take care of the threats in the world.

If we look to the situation in Russia/Ukraine for example it's very important that we continue to invest in our military.

Two countries as big as a pea !
even better : an united states of europe air force, only european built ! Eurofighter,rafale,a400,europcopter.....
:)
maybe not so sexy ide but rational the best,...
CXB
A European army is completely unrealistic. Maybe in 50 years... We cannot wait for this (if it will ever happen) and use this as an excuse to not to invest today.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,
Boavida wrote:If we look to the situation in Russia/Ukraine for example it's very important that we continue to invest in our military.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

The politicians don't even dare to point and Mr.Putin, only some very weak economic sanctions... for the fear of getting no or even fully priced gas in some months from now... and you need some air power to impress Mr. Putin ???? yeah right, that will scare him off...

Better invest in some power stations which can run independly of other states...
Boavida wrote:Every country has to take its responsibility on all levels. You can't expect other countries to take care of our own security.
I never said we has to rely on the Netherlands.. I stated on a far more driven military co-operation between our pea-states :)
We can base cargo and A400M where we are already much more and better equipped to do so.. and they can support the strategic fighter role..
Didn't say the pilots of both our countries can't co-operate.. they have to... as so our little navy..
Because really I don't see, really don't see why not... we are already together in Afghanistan,Kosovo,Libya,etc..
This can be a start for the european army... as we were forty years ago with the E U ! remember ??? EGKS
Boavida wrote:America already called upon Europe to invest more in its military in stead of (cowardly) relying on the sole US to take care of the threats in the world.
America may,can and will always do so...
Maybe EU have to but in a united way...
I personally don't think its cowardly... because the USA liked it doing so.... Iraq ? Libya ?
Indeed the dictators are dead but they left the countries in a bigger mess then before...
And solutions aren't in arms but in politics..
Better send those .... to diplomatic courses then in material...

I know we like those planes but maybe one generation have to be smarter than this... although they also have the aviation heart in it... :)
Boavida wrote:Purchasing new aircraft will not put future generations under more debt.
Are you getting them with bags of money ?
Boavida wrote:The purchase of military aircraft would actually be a gain for the Belgian economy. Belgium gained much more with the purchase of the F16's than that they ever costed. It would be a great boost to the Belgian aviation industry, as Belgian companies would be able to take part in the construction and maintenance of the new aircraft.
Indeed, you give SABCA,BARCO etc.. big orders and money for their needed checks,updates,programming ,...
but that all comes from your own wallet :)
Okay a big part of that money will get back into the economy but you can put that money also direct in other branches of the industry ;)
Maybe you can support ESA more ;) or getting knowledge out of it..
so for instance our future children don't need to pay +1000 euro a year for higher education,
or you don't need to raise prices for water and electricity and so renew power stations, and delivery systems together with public works on the brussels and antwerp ring ways ..

But guess that opinion isn't 'right' enough no ?

And hey.. Putin will be as much scared by Belgium in the end... , oh no.. now he's really scared.. with those belgians and their sufficient independly power stations they export energy to german and austria and he can't get rid and make money of his gas.... that will make him scare , really !

Just my idea :)

CXB
New types flown 2022.. A339

Flanker2
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Flanker2 »

-- Joint Program Office (JPO) in charge of the F-35 Lightning II program built by Lockheed Martin;
-- the Navy Integrated Program Office (NIPO) for the Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet;
-- the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA) of the French Ministry of Defence for the Dassault Rafale;
-- the Swedish Defence and Security Export Agency (FXM) for the Saab JAS-39 Saab; and
-- the UK Ministry of Defence for the Eurofighter consortium's eponymous fighter, a spokesman for the Defense ministry told the Belga agency.
What a stupid selection to choose from.
The F-35 is expensive and can't hold up in a dogfight.
F-18 costs more to operate than F-16's, while they're designs from the same period with the F-18 optimised for carrier operations.
The Rafale is expensive to operate and buy, but has little more to offer compared to the Typhoon.
The Gripen is relatively cheap to buy and operate but that's about it.
The Eurofighter is a good plane, but also more expensive to operate.

If you want a cheap 7600 interceptor that has low operating cost and can also do ground attack, the Gripen is an acceptable choice.

What's Belgium's main requirement been in the past 40 years? Intercepting lost communication and ground attack in Afghanistan? The Gripen would be more than sufficient, even though it's a lost opportunity for Belgium to stand at the forefront with Sukhoi who's desperate for exports.
With all due respect, but this is pretty shortsighted. Purchasing new aircraft will not put future generations under more debt. The purchase of military aircraft would actually be a gain for the Belgian economy. Belgium gained much more with the purchase of the F16's than that they ever costed. It would be a great boost to the Belgian aviation industry, as Belgian companies would be able to take part in the construction and maintenance of the new aircraft.
That boost comes from the taxpayer's money, and the rest from debt.
Any of the aforementionned programs are already completed aircraft and Belgium will not be able to buy sufficient quantities to claim assembly work.
The F-16 program was more interesting for Belgium as they got significant workshare on both the airframe and the engines, as the government back then struck a good deal with LMT.
Also, the F-16's were relatively affordable back then.

That's why I think that Belgium should work with a partner from outside Europe that has performant stealth aircraft and is desperately looking for exports. Sukhoi is one option, but before I get accused of working for Rostec or the "KGB", why not with Japan on their ATD-X based F-3? If needed, they can bridge the gap with used F-16's.
Japan would be relieved to have a reliable European export partner and Belgium can do its F-16 success story all over again.

CX-Belgium, you're right. Having a bunch of useless aircraft will not make Putin scared.
To keep Russia in line, you need to create interest.
For Russia, sale of gas is a great source of income but they really don't care about that either, because if they don't sell it, they can sit on it and still use it for themselves or sell it to someone else like China. It's a resource that doesn't expire.

If you look at their presence at the big trade shows, it's obvious that Russia wants to export high -value manufactured goods and compete direcly with the U.S. This includes weapons but also aircraft.
The SSJ was the first step but the MS-21 is a new attempt to achieve that.
I think that tha tis where the Russian interest lies.
If European countries or companies would stop bias and cooperate with Russia to combine technologies, who knows how high they can fly together. And I'm sure that Russia will really think twice before breaking relationships with Europe when such interests are involved.

For your information, both Airbus and United Aircraft Corporation own shares of eachother...

DutchNL
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by DutchNL »

One must not forget that a twin-engine fighter is costly to operate (F18, Rafale and the Eurofighter) and is one of the reasons why the Dutch Air Force didn't choose a twin-engine fighter. We only getting 37 fighters on a budget of 7 to 8 billion and that is including discount because the netherlands is one of the participant nations (level 2). So you can expect how much the belgian defence must pay for it off the shelf and how many they can expect if they buy them on a budget of 3 billion?

At the end I will expect that the battle will be between Saab Gripen or hopping on with the netherlands and buy 30+/- F-35 and forget about assembly in the low countries. Those times are over
cathay belgium wrote: I never said we has to rely on the Netherlands.. I stated on a far more driven military co-operation between our pea-states :)
We can base cargo and A400M where we are already much more and better equipped to do so.. and they can support the strategic fighter role..
Didn't say the pilots of both our countries can't co-operate.. they have to... as so our little navy..
Because really I don't see, really don't see why not... we are already together in Afghanistan,Kosovo,Libya,etc..
This can be a start for the european army... as we were forty years ago with the E U ! remember ??? EGKS
Co-operation is possible on some level via the European Air Transport Command: heavy air lift/tanker role with the Dutch on the KDC10 and with the Strategic Airlift Capability C-17s , smaller lift with the Belgians on the A400M and look at the quick reaction alert task that will be jointly done from 2016 http://goo.gl/F2vOFa

I think a joint helicopter command won't work. Just look at what they use:
Belgium:
-Alouette
-NH90
-A109

Netherlands
-Aloutte (only VIP/Royal Family)
-NHF90
-AH-64
-Eurocopter Cougar
-Chinook
-Augusta-Bell 412

But please no European Army :x :mrgreen:

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Treeper
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Treeper »

So Flanker was promoting coop with Russia, 11 days after MH17?
The decision has to be made this or next year. Let me make this simple:

The chance that the choice falls on a Russian made jet are 0,00%.

I worked for CD&V, and met a few times with Crembo. I can say you this: he is quite US/UK minded when it comes to Defense.

@Flanker:
If you want Crembo to buy a Russian plane. Please stop talking drivel and contact him @ http://www.pieterdecrem.be/index.php?id=261
Ministry of Defense is reachable via +32 (0)2 550 28 11 and located in
Rue Lambermontstraat 8, 1000 Brussels. Tell Wiske I said hi.

Please, let us know how this went.

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