Brussels Airlines: a Flemish company?

[lumumba]

Forget about "NATIONAL", that concept was invented in the 18th century, grew strong in the 19th, and died in the 20th (except for some banana republics). Today EBBR/BRU is an airport like any other airport and it happens to be on territory that is (constitutionally!) Flemish. So the Flemish laws and rules apply. It doesn't get any simpler. That said, I fully agree that we shouldn't get carried away with a sneer from a politician.

I don't think that's correct I realy think it has to be at least bilingual like some regions around Brussels.
But I'm not 100% sure.

Like jan olieslagers said: Brussels Airport is on Flemish territory, hence Flemish laws and rules apply.

When the Belgian language law was installed (1963/1970), there was indeed a problem for Brussels Airport. Language legislation obliges that official communication from a public authority to the public is done in the language of the community only (NL in Flanders, FR in Wallonia, FR and/or NL in Brussels Capital Region. The Flemish Parliament then accepted a law (a decreet) that communication at Brussels Airport may differ from the general rule: it may be in NL, or NL/FR, or EN/NL/FR or even EN/NL/FR/DE. Hence the multi-langual announcements at Brussels Airport.

If I understood well it's not an obligation to communicate in NL/FR than?

[Acid-drop]

that would be so 19th century...
We have international people working in BE, speaking english only and it works just fine.
I work in Flanders for 6 years now, never speaking dutch. Everything in english as if I were just another european citizen. And it works fine. The market is global. We work with EMEA people every minute. Why bother with a local language ?

[sean1982]

really? Cause everyone who isnt fortunate enough to be able to study can also make themselves understandable in their OWN country

[flightlover]

that would be so 19th century...
We have international people working in BE, speaking english only and it works just fine.
I work in Flanders for 6 years now, never speaking dutch. Everything in english as if I were just another european citizen. And it works fine. The market is global. We work with EMEA people every minute. Why bother with a local language ?

So you do not feel the need they should at least do an effort to learn the language of the country they are living and working? And that is just the BIG problem between the two communities in Belgium. THE LACK OFF RESPECT TO TRY!!
One should find it an obligation to learn Dutch and try to speak it when you come and live and work in Flanders. It's just disgusting.

I have no problem to help people in other languages when there is a need to. (Foreigners or not fully Dutch speaking) But I get mad at people having no notion off Dutch when they are living in Flanders or Brussels.

[Passenger]

If I understood well it's not an obligation to communicate in NL/FR than?

Indeed: there is no obligation. Although... the Flemish law (decreet) of 1973 states that Dutch must allways be used. Luckily there is common sense within Brussels Airport to use the language of the clients as much as possible: NL/FR/EN/DE.

The language legislation doesn't apply for private companies when they contact clients. Example: Pizza Hut Brussels Airport may have a menu card in Chinese or Swahili only.

So far for communication to the public. For labour legislation, it's different. To avoid the 19th Century "pour les Flamands la même chose", the national legislator has ruled that official labour-related contacts must be done in the language of the place were the employer is based. All employees at Brussels Airlines, working at Brussels Airport, must have a labour contract in Dutch. Could be that a French speaking employee also has a contract in French, but if there is any discussion, the Dutch version prevails:
http://www.werk.belgie.be/detailA_Z.aspx?id=5528
http://www.emploi.belgique.be/detailA_Z.aspx?id=5528

(*) As from 02th May 2014, the Flemish language legislation has accepted that labour contracts for Flanders-based companies may be in English only for so called trans border labour ("grensoverschrijdend karakter"). Example: foreign crew.

[sn26567]

When I first saw the title of this topic, I thought "This topic will be closed in one hour because of insults and excessive language". I realise with a great satisfaction that it is not the case, as everyone here seems to understand that it is possible to discuss in a civilised way, even if everyone does not share the same opinion.

Thanks to everybody in this discussion to behave correctly and to keep it that way! :thumbup:

[lumumba]

If I understood well it's not an obligation to communicate in NL/FR than?

Indeed: there is no obligation. Although... the Flemish law (decreet) of 1973 states that Dutch must allways be used. Luckily there is common sense within Brussels Airport to use the language of the clients as much as possible: NL/FR/EN/DE.

The language legislation doesn't apply for private companies when they contact clients. Example: Pizza Hut Brussels Airport may have a menu card in Chinese or Swahili only.

So far for communication to the public. For labour legislation, it's different. To avoid the 19th Century "pour les Flamands la même chose", the national legislator has ruled that official labour-related contacts must be done in the language of the place were the employer is based. All employees at Brussels Airlines, working at Brussels Airport, must have a labour contract in Dutch. Could be that a French speaking employee also has a contract in French, but if there is any discussion, the Dutch version prevails:
http://www.werk.belgie.be/detailA_Z.aspx?id=5528
http://www.emploi.belgique.be/detailA_Z.aspx?id=5528

(*) As from 02th May 2014, the Flemish language legislation has accepted that labour contracts for Flanders-based companies may be in English only for so called trans border labour ("grensoverschrijdend karakter"). Example: foreign crew.

THX for the information.

[sn26567]

All employees at Brussels Airlines, working at Brussels Airport, must have a labour contract in Dutch.

If I do remember correctly, the seat of Brussels Airlines is in Ixelles/Elsene (Brussels Region), and therefore the labour contracts can be in either Dutch or French. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Passenger]

All employees at Brussels Airlines, working at Brussels Airport, must have a labour contract in Dutch.

If I do remember correctly, the seat of Brussels Airlines is in Ixelles/Elsene (Brussels Region), and therefore the labour contracts can be in either Dutch or French. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The above labour legislation mentions "siège d'exploitation", not "siège sociale" (exploitatiezetel versus maatschappelijke zetel): Lorsque l'employeur a un siège d'exploitation dans la région de langue néerlandaise, l'usage du néerlandais est imposé dans les relations sociales entre l'employeur et les travailleurs ainsi que dans les actes et documents que la loi impose aux entreprises.

Social Security company SD Works refers to a decision from the Belgian Constitutional Court about the difference: "exploitatiezetel" is iedere vestiging of centrum van activiteit met enige standvastigheid waaraan het personeel gehecht is en waar de sociale contacten tussen de werkgever en de werknemer in principe plaats hebben. Dit wil zeggen daar waar doorgaans de opdrachten en instructies aan de werknemer worden gegeven, daar waar hem doorgaans alle mededelingen worden gedaan, daar waar de werknemer zich wendt tot zijn werkgever.”

(in brief: siège d'exploitation is where one works).

[b720]

what a silly topic, silly posts, silly people who brought up the topic in the first place, whether here or in the media.. what's the point people?

[lumumba]

what a silly topic, silly posts, silly people who brought up the topic in the first place, whether here or in the media.. what's the point people?

Not for me I wanna make thinks clear and it did so it helped ...

[Homo Aeroportus]

what a silly topic, silly posts, silly people who brought up the topic in the first place, whether here or in the media.. what's the point people?

At first I reacted as you did mate, until I realized that all this must be a well-orchestrated deterrent addressed to LH should they take over SN and envisage applying an UberAllesitis.
Now they will think twice !
What language must they use for their Otto Pilots in this piece of wonderland ?

Do they need to consider the address where the company is registered, where it operates, the mother tongue of the highest ranked in the cockpit, the language spoken by the qualified (*) majority of the passengers ?
(*) EU citizens have a voting weight of 1, even women, non-EU have 0.5, forced repatriated are not eligible.

When I was working in Ohio USA, my colleagues were always surprised when I told them that Belgium is only as large as one-third the size of Ohio. They were probably fooled by the immensity of the problems such a small almost-country was capable of tackling.

Supposedly Leopold II, King of the Belgians (not of Belgium), would have said :
“A country is never small when it reaches to the seas”. I think the original version in French was “... quand il touche à l’amer”.
We are a great country then.

Just think of 5-year old kids playing together on the beach.
A Belgian, a German, an Italian, a Swede. What language did they agree to use? Whatever. They just communicate, and enjoy it.

Then they “grow up”.

Pace e Salute.

H.A.

[Jetter]

I work in Flanders for 6 years now, never speaking dutch. Everything in english as if I were just another european citizen. And it works fine. The market is global. We work with EMEA people every minute. Why bother with a local language ?

That's just ignorent and rude towards locals. If you work somewhere for 6 years you should make an effort to speak the local language. People like you with so much disrespect towards excisting local communities are a big part of the reason the anti-immigration sentiment in Europe is growing.

[Stij]

And the first warning is launched!

Keep playing the ball and not the player!

Stij

[Acid-drop]

Useless discussion yes. But very interesting to see the kinda of stress a language can create with some people.
Working in an international environment, I respect my Italian and german collegues as much as my flemish collegues, I don't force anyone to speak my dialect, I don't impose my customs, habbits, fashion, religion.
But suddenly, being a franslalig ,working 300m on the other side of the language border, i take a big risk not adapting enough to the local customs, i'm disgusting and I show a lack of respect ? Pardon me ?
Nobody would ever judge me when I go to Düsseldorf or Eindhoven, but in Diegem or Zaventem it's a torrent of it.
Are you judging a polish girl working in BRU the same as a random franstalig or is it just shameless bias ?
My work is international by design, my flemish collegues are just european like any others and they receive the same treatment : we all speak english. And believe it or not, it works well and everybody respect each other.

When i travel via BRU, I understand most of the "locals" (understand living nearby) workers are flemish speaking and I understand very well BRU and SN are flemish dominent (just by statistics, flemish represent 60% of the speakers of this country anyway). I don't even know why we need to discuss it. Yes it's a fact. Marcourt is probably right. End of the story.
He wants to invest money is something "more local" ... well, that's his job. That's exactly what he should do.

[convair]

When I first saw the title of this topic, I thought "This topic will be closed in one hour because of insults and excessive language". I realise with a great satisfaction that it is not the case, as everyone here seems to understand that it is possible to discuss in a civilised way, even if everyone does not share the same opinion.

Thanks to everybody in this discussion to behave correctly and to keep it that way! :thumbup:

I'm afraid your post was just a little premature, André!

[Stij]

Just think of 5-year old kids playing together on the beach.
A Belgian, a German, an Italian, a Swede. What language did they agree to use? Whatever. They just communicate, and enjoy it.

Funny, I witnessed it last week:

My 3 year old daughter playing in Club Med's day care center with mostly French kids under Italian supervision. In the end she even translated for her 2 year old niece...

But as a a grown up I had a great time as well skiing with a Swiss instructor, a Frenchman living in Luxemburg, a Walloon, a Flemish and a Francophone from Brussels. And in the restaurants with the Italian waiters and cooks.

One could say it's about education then, but I disagree: the complete Flemish vs Walloon hysteria is a great invention of our politicians:

It's so much more easy to blame all the problems to the "others" then to admit you're at fault yourself.

And what in countries where there's no "others" you might ask? Blame the EU!

Cheers,

Stij

[b720]

language of aviation is English..
Internal e mails and documents are or (probably) in NL,F, and ENG. Maybe someone can correct me?
This will not change LH's investments in the company, nor should it affect growth and profitability. I fly SN on a weekly basis, sometimes 2 times a week... Everyone on board speaks at least NL, F, and ENG. Same goes to ground staff that I have encountered.. What is the point of this topic, and the title of the thread??

[Acid-drop]

We should show this topic to the people of luxembourg and asking them what they think.

[sn26567]

What is the point of this topic, and the title of the thread??

Agree! I was weary when I saw it. The article in De Standaard is not about SN being a Flemish company, it's about the Walloon Region selling its SN shares to LH. All the rest is bla bla bla.

And, as I feared in the very beginning, the topic might be closed soon if ...